FAQ  •  My feedback  •  Feedback
UKLockpickers.co.uk Lockpicking supplies such as Lockpicks, tools, and more! COMMANDOLOCK.COM Military grade padlock systems lockpickshop.com A source for lockpicking supplies such as lockpicks, locksmith tools, and more!

New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Sun Apr 23, 2017 9:05 pm

New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Hey All,

I am new to the forum and have been browsing around and researching things. I have picked locks a bit in the past but was never amazing at it. I have always wanted to learn to crack safes though. My family has a Sentry 1250 direct entry fence safe which is about twenty years old. I decided to start on that and using a long stick taped to the dial and indicating on a ruler taped to a box, I was able to get into this one in about 45 minutes. I realize this lock is very easy to manipulate and so wanted something more difficult like a Group 2 lock. A local store tossed their ATM machine when it broke and after speaking to them about it, my father acquired the safe for me. It took me three tries to crack the La Gard 3330 lock inside the safe. The first two times, after about 5 or 6 hours or meaningless data, I asked for the combination and reviewed my graphs, looking for helpful info. My contact points were all over the place and nowhere near as clear as I expected them to be. I believe this is partially due to the shape of the La Gard wheels but also partially due to my inability to accurately find the right contact point. After a lot of experimentation, I came to the conclusion that this point is most easily found rotating the dial right past the contact point and listening and feeling for the fence drop against the wheel pack. After doing a lot of research on this site, particularly OldFast's shadowing trick of indicating ten numbers at a time to graph the general shape of the wheels, today, after about 4 hours and 6 graphs, I managed to open the safe! :D I am pretty excited and am hooked! My father also told me that if I could get into it he would split the cost of my next lock, so what should I get? Based on my readings, it sounds that the S&G locks are generally easier than the La Gard, so I wonder if I would be better off looking for something like a Mosler 302 to work on.

tarboxb
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Mon Apr 24, 2017 10:51 pm

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

We ordered an S&G 6730 for the next one. My father wants to learn and I think the 6730 should be a lot less frustrating than this La Gard 3330. I am going to practice with this guy more while I wait for the new one! This really is a lot of fun!
<<

madsamurai

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 179

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 am

Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:06 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Congrats, tarboxb! I've heard the 3330 is a bit trickier than the 6730, but they're pretty similar. I just got a 3330 recently and need to get it mounted up proper and take a stab at it (need to start spinning again in general, got distracted with lever locks). There's a lot to be learned from Oldfast's posts and a bunch of other guys here... I've learned a ton from them, and they've always been pretty great about answering questions and helping out... you're definitely in good company. Datagram put up a short list of good beginner locks here that might be helpful: http://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?p=48488#p48488
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Tue Apr 25, 2017 1:32 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Hey madsamurai! Thank you for that list. Yeah the 3330 was difficult due to the fact that the wheels are not round so there essentially is no "largest" wheel. You have to continually work the lock deeper and deeper, putting the wheels to the lowest points you can find until gates give themselves up. Manipulating this one was very interesting. My first graph showed me what appeared to actually be a gate with a center of 58. I identified that it most likely belonged to wheel three. There was also a possible gate showing around 7 or so. This I could not conclusively determine was wheel one or two at first. I decided to park both 2 and 3 at 58 and amplify that area on wheel one. A fairly promising gate showed up centered around 7. At this point I was already feeling pretty good. I parked wheel one at 7 and wheel three at 58 and began graphing wheel 2. A very clear gate showed up centered on 72. Interestingly, the lock did not open. I decided to regraph wheel one as the gate I had seen there was not super clear parking wheel 2 at 72 and 3 at 58. Wheel one then showed a very clear and defined gate, actually centered on 10.5. Again, the lock did not open. At this point I decided to review my graphs and think a bit. I decided that it was likely that my first "gate," 58 on wheel three was either a low spot and not a gate at all, or I had been off some. Seeing as how the gates on wheels one and two were so clear and I had found them later in the manipulation, I decided wheel three's gate was likely off some. I decided to brute force wheel three. I parked wheel one at 10.5, two at 72, and started wheel three around left at 0. On 42, I could feel the lock wanted to open but it wouldn't quite give it up. 43, and... presto!!! Open at 10.5-72-43. The "actual" combination according to my setter was 11-72-43!
<<

madsamurai

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 179

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 am

Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Tue Apr 25, 2017 3:48 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Interesting, I wasn't aware of that... you got my curiosity going so I set up an indicator on w3 of mine and sure enough there's about .015" variance. Glad you pointed that out before I got into this one; that would have been rather confusing :) I suspect you'll have a much easier time with the 6730.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Tue Apr 25, 2017 4:04 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Yeah, the 3330 from my understanding is tricky for a Group 2. I advise you do OldFast's method as I did. Graph AWL, 10 numbers at a time. You will see dramatic variation due to the out of roundness of the wheels. Focus on the low areas. Amplify them and look for gates, if you don't find any, at least determine which wheel the lowest area belongs to by doing high low tests also utilizing the highest area. Treat these low areas like false gates and park wheels there in order to expose deeper areas of the lock. Repeat until you find gate signatures. It took me six graphs to conclusively find all of my gates. Yours may be more or less of course. Good luck! I will probably be trying mine again tomorrow.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Tue Apr 25, 2017 9:30 pm

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Yes! Just manipulated it again. This time I did it in 2 hours and 6 minutes. Still slow but not bad for my second manipulation on this, I think. It took me four graphs this time and I essentially used the same technique. I did a ten interval sweep of the wheel pack, AWL and found a possible gate on wheel two at L27 and wheel three at L47.5. I converted the second wheel number to R24.5 and decided to graph wheel one AL parking wheel two at R24.5 and 3 at L47.5. This next graph I did the same way and found an area near L38 that appeared to be a possible gate but the lock wouldn't open. I thought back to my last manipulation and how wheel three's graph had been a low spot and decided to graph wheel three AL parking 1 at L38 and 2 at R24.5. I found an extremely promising gate centered on L90. There was a 5/8 increment contact area change in one increment! At this point I knew I was very close but the lock wasn't budging. Finally I decided that perhaps wheel 1's gate was off a bit. I regraphed it with 2 at R24.5 and 3 at L90. The new graph made me believe that wheel 1's gate was actually centered at 37. Unfortunately, still no dice. I decided that it was possible my conversion had been off when I converted L27 to R24.5 on wheel 2 and decided to go back and brute force wheel 2 from 22 up. It opened on 38-22-90!!!! This is so addicting! I can't wait to get the S&G 6730 to play with!
<<

madsamurai

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 179

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 am

Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Wed Apr 26, 2017 2:32 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Nice work! Seriously, for only having manipulated a couple of locks, I'd call a 2-hour open pretty darn good. And yeah, I know exactly how that addiction feels. I have the day off Friday so will hopefully be able to get going on my 3330 then... you've got me itchin' for it. Just searched back thru some of Oldfast's and Atlashot's posts for shadowing theories and info and found some great discussions about the LaGards and their odd wheels, so I feel like I'm armed and ready now. I'm constantly impressed by the depth of information there is to find here... I could dig for days and still keep finding tips I haven't seen. For having just started into this, it sure sounds like you're picking it up fast! Looking forward to hearing how you do with the S&G.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:02 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Thank's man. I am having a good time. I am pretty mechanically inclined, I'm a machinist actually so it didn't take too long to get pretty good at visualizing what is happening inside the lock. Like I said, my first couple tries on this thing were totally fruitless but that was due to the shadowing effect. After reading up about ways to combat it, it is much easier! I will let you know how the S&G goes. One other thing about this La Gard is it is incredibly difficult to determine the right contact point. Interestingly, I can actually tell when I get wheels lining up because the noise changes when I drop the fence on the wheel pack going over the right contact point. Good luck on your La Gard and let me know how it goes! I am curious to see! When I get a chance I will post some graphs, at least the ones from the last opening as they were a bit more logical than the first.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:11 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Looks like I am snagging this for 50 bucks. Any ideas who made the lock?
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:20 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Here is a picture of a similar safe and lock...
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Wed Apr 26, 2017 4:28 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

The ultimate lock picture.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4004

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Mon May 01, 2017 3:20 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

I'm a bit behind on the 'welcome wagon' here (I get quite busy this time of year)... but WELCOME!
You mentioned in another thread that you should maybe post an introduction - personally, I'd love
to see that. I always like to hear some background on people, and I always love to hear what/why
someone gets interested in safecracking.

Anyway, I'm very excited for you! And impressed. Specifically in regards to how quickly you've
caught on to wheel movement (one of the biggest struggles when starting). In your S&G thread
you mention you may have messed up once in terms of what wheel(s) you thought you were
moving... but for the most part I'd say you're navigating the wheel pack pretty damn well!

Congrats on your first victory... and with a LaGard nonetheless! Until you fully understand them,
they are very elusive locks. I myself struggled with 'em for 4 looong years. Recently met a locksmith
that was immediately interested in what (if anything) I knew of LaGards - he's struggled with them for
nearly 40 years. So it's common to see them drilled, even though they can indeed be manipulated.

tarboxb wrote:.....After doing a lot of research on this site, particularly Oldfast's shadowing trick of indicating ten numbers at a time to graph the general shape of the wheels, today, after about 4 hours and 6 graphs, I managed to open the safe!.....

This is one of many, many techniques I've tried over the years. Although it is a means to an end (and I'm glad
to hear it helped you!), it is just one more attempt that eventually fell by the waste side. I eventually found it to
be inconsistent in the long run. Over the last year or so I've been working intensely with these and have finally
gotten to a point where I feel pretty good about it. Bout freakin' time! Geez, lol. How I've now come to handle
them is actually a mixture of two different methods (neither original to me).

Now nothing is more annoying than to have someone jump in on a thread just to say "Oh yeah, it can be done",
or, "I have an awesome method for that" - but then disappear or refuse to elaborate! Certainly, I'm not 'that guy'.
I, more so than most, can understand how frustrating it can be to have so much devotion, so much work ethic
for manipulation - yet not always know where/how to direct your efforts. I do hope to expand upon this topic at
some point, but honestly I'm struggling a little bit as to if/how to do that correctly. Up to this point, all my writing
around here is based solely on my own work... so to talk, even in a general way, about someone else's work is
new to me. So for now, I'll just take my time and tread lightly. I must talk with these people first. We'll see.

tarboxb wrote:Yeah, the 3330 from my understanding is tricky for a Group 2 ...../snip/..... You will see dramatic variation due to the out of roundness of the wheels.

This is incorrect. And is a very common belief that I myself hung onto for a long time! LaGard wheels are in fact
fairly concentric. Actually, they're about as 'round' as any other wheel type in any other lock. Extreme fluctuations
exhibited by LaGards (and Ilco's P67 lock) are a direct result of what's known as 'wheel float'. Wheel float exists, to
some extent, in nearly every lock. But LaGard has it to such a degree that it tends to throw most of us for a real loop.

Without writing an entire article, lol... basically 3 things factor into creating wheel float:
1. the space/tolerance that exists between the wheels and wheel post. (If the center hole of
each wheel were a perfect fit to the wheel post, there wouldn't be enough 'play' for rotation.
)
2. device used within a lock to provide tension on the wheel pack. (This 'sandwiches' the
wheels together for a properly functioning lock. In the case of LaGard's - a wave washer.
)
3. And finally, rotational force/torque on the wheels (that occur when we're turning them.)

A wheel when being turned will be lifted up off the wheel post, or, pressed down. Naturally,
this brings the wheel closer to, or further from, the fence; giving us a wide range of readings.
Whether a wheel is lifted up or pressed down will be dependent on both the direction in which
we're rotating as well as where we're at within one revolution.

Logic says gravity will always bring a wheel to rest/hang on the wheel post at its' lowest point.
That's where the wave washer comes into play. The tension will 'hold' a wheel in a suspended
state, leaving it 'hovering' up off the wheel post.

So there you have it - what took my dumbass nearly 4 yrs to understand....
you get TONIGHT. The 'information age', ain't it grand?! :D Hope it helps.

All that said; Personally, I have found understanding wheel float versus actually using it to my
advantage
are two very different things, lol. It has taken me a long time (and I'm still learning).
What can I say, lol... I'm a slow learner. And honestly, I'm not much for 'thinking outside the box'.
But HERE in this manipulation you can see that I began to realize/understand the importance of
directional rotation - the lifting and pressing down of the wheels. For the first time, (not knowing
there was even a name for it) I at least started to utilize wheel float by using it to minimize the
inconsistent hi/low test results I'd been battling with. Reading over that manipulation btw, may
help answer some questions you had in your S&G thread. Anyway, hope this helps somehow.

I'll head over to your other thread (S&G Nightmare) and see what damage I can do there. lol
Again, very nice to meet ya. Lookin' forward to seen' ya around & hope to learn from/with you!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

tarboxb

Familiar Face

Posts: 157

Joined: Sun Apr 23, 2017 8:49 pm

Post Mon May 01, 2017 4:16 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

Awesome response Oldfast! Thank you very much. I don't really have time to have a look at that manipulation at the moment but I will certainly check it out! You certainly are a valuable resource here. On another note, am I right that you are the one with a video on youtube insanely quickly manipulating masterlock combo locks? I tried your method and couldn't find any sticking points. Did they change the design or am I crazy?
<<

madsamurai

User avatar

Familiar Face

Posts: 179

Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2017 4:13 am

Location: Germantown, Ohio

Post Mon May 01, 2017 4:48 am

Re: New and Just Cracked My La Gard 3330

There's Oldfast! I knew you wouldn't be able to stay away from this topic for long... and of course one tiny link to your 'Chronicles' and now it's 12:30am and I'm forcing myself to stop reading for the night (again). So much to learn there, and then re-read again and learn more. So glad you chimed in and linked back to that post... the wheel float thing is a big enlightenment moment for me, and since I'm about to start my first attempt with my 3330, probably just saved me a ton of confusion in advance. I love this place... Great stuff as always, and glad to see ya :)
Next

Return to Safes, Strongboxes & Combination Locks

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: CommonCrawl [Bot]

Don't forget to visit our sponsors for all of your lockpicking needs!
Powered by phpBB © 2000, 2002, 2005, 2007 phpBB Grop
"CA Black" theme designed by stsoftware