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Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:02 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

w1 is a standard 5-false-gate wheel with false gates at 19-37-47-69-90 (with true gate at 0 and turning around CCW).
w2 is a standard 2-false-gate wheel with false gates at 33-67.
w3 is a standard 3-false-gate wheel with false gates at 28-52-84.

Of the true and false gates I have seen these (slight indications in brackets):
w1: 0-(19)-(37)-xx-(69)-90
w2: 0-33-67
w3: 0-28-52-84

On the first AWL scan:
w1: xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx
w2: xx-xx-xx
w3: xx-28-52-xx

On the first R15/R15/L scan:
w1: xx-xx-xx-xx-xx-xx
w2: xx-xx-xx
w3: (0)-28-52-(84)

With the knowledge of the wheel configuration the true gate would have been locatable on this first w3 scan.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Mar 05, 2017 1:02 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

I made a template for the false gates, which I printed on clear plastic foil. I have attached it as odg and pdf.

My printout of the graphing template from the book is 16.66 cm high. I have it extrapolated from the distance between 5 and 95 because the borders especially at 0 are not so good to measure. If your printout is different you have to scale it accordingly. On the left are two marks for 5 and 95 to check for correct size.

The left halve is a location of all gates on the three types of wheels I know of. If you found one or multiple gates you can put it on your graph to locate the others and especially the true gate. If you located two neighboring gates you can determine the wheel type and gate numbers with the lines on the right halve of the page. Maybe I will add two gate distances to this graph at some time.

The false gate offsets are to my best knowledge, but they can be a off. If you have better or more date please let me know.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Mar 05, 2017 2:32 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

These are now the photos of the inside of the lock. The gates in the detail are at 28, 33 and 37.
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femurat

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Post Mon Mar 06, 2017 9:28 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

MartinHewitt wrote:The 4:21 I could have easily improved by 42 minutes by not wrongly using 22 instead of 27.


Being sure about one number but dialing another one. I hate when it happens.

The info you posted about false gates position is priceless.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Mar 08, 2017 10:30 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

Phew! I believe my dialing got better, but my attempt today was so far not successful after 2:09. I saw two gates at AWL scan, which I believe are one true and one false gate of w3. The true gate would be at 7. Then I made an error which wasted one and a halve scan. At the moment I have something of tiny indications of gates at w1, which could point to the true gate also at 7. But on w2 I get no tiny indication of something which looks like a gate. The lowest and highest point differ by 1/4 notch. I will continue tomorroe, or maybe do a restart.
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madsamurai

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Post Thu Mar 09, 2017 2:39 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

I'm going to have to try to find one of these, you make it out to be quite a lot of fun ;)
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Mar 09, 2017 3:13 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Mar 12, 2017 9:43 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

Forgot what I did on my first attempt and started from scratch. After playing around for roughly an hour I have not progressed much.

AWL showed gates at 7.5, 14 and 87. The 7.5 and 14 do not match the minimum distance for this wheel type, which should be 10. I think I will really have to map each wheel when to lock is open to get better false gate date. In the meantime I can assume with 14 I have a 50/50 chance of it being the true and only f^Hgate.

Then I did a R/R/L14 scan. This is the point where progress stopped. The left contact point was really a flat line. There were maybe slight variations, but I never could say that "now it has changed 1/8th". So I stopped recording in onwards. On the right contact point there might be gates or just measurement errors and manufacturing variations. When I was around 10-15 with the R/R/L14 the lock got stuck at the left contact point. So W3@14 might be really the true gate and there might be another gate nearby.

Then I did an incompete scan of only W3. That did confirm the gates at 7.5, 14 and 87.

And finally I did a quick scan of W1 with steps of 20 in the hope to find a low spot. It was always 11 5/8 with a "high" spot at 20 with 11 6/8.

What should I do now?
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femurat

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Post Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:09 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

I'd try wheels #1 and #2 around right with wheel #3 @ 87.
Or you could park wheel #1 at 20, scan wheel #2 around right with wheel #3 @ 87.

When I get some odd readings, it may be because two wheels are set to the same number.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Mar 13, 2017 11:13 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

It might be the case, that two wheels are set to (nearly) the same number.

I played around last night for another hour. The low point at 42.5/44 might be from w1. So I made a scan L42.5/R/L14. Some variations between 11 5/8 and 11 6/8. Some could be gates, some not. Nothing matching to the false gate plan. At 80 there is a low point which might be a gate. So I made a scan L/R80/L14. Variations between 11 5/8 and 11 7/8. At 72.5/75 is something which might be a gate. So I did some scanning with L74/R/L14 with no change to the L42.5/R/L14. I also checked in these scans sometimes w3@7.5 and w3@87 if it goes deeper than 11 5/8, but no. So still not wiser.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Mar 13, 2017 10:25 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

This is with the new graphs on the right contact point. The new blue line is for w2 and the new red line for w1. The fiddling at the end is mostly ungraphed, because it is nearly the same as the already existing blue line. So w1@11 and w1@74 was no better than w1@42.5. I could try to graph w2 with w1@25 and w1@95. From my original false gate measurement of w3 (which I discarded in favor of data I found in a forum) the distance between the last false gate and the true gate is indeed less then 10 notches. So all looks to me that w3@14 is the true gate. Another possibility would be to scan with w1 and w2 at a fixed offset, e.g. w2=w1-10.

PS: No, w3@14 can't be the true gate because it would be in the forbidden zone.
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femurat

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Post Tue Mar 14, 2017 8:27 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

MartinHewitt wrote:PS: No, w3@14 can't be the true gate because it would be in the forbidden zone.


I never exclude this area because who changed the combination may have made a mistake.
If the lock is mounted in a safe it may be a problem. With a practice lock it's not a big deal.

This manipulation is too strange to be normal. Something is wrong and it may be this.

Cheers :)
An old post of mine that you'd like to read is missing pictures? PM me and I'll fix them.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Mar 14, 2017 10:53 am

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

The problem with the forbidden zone should only be when you open it and not from manipulation. I did compare my new graphs with the graphs from my first opening and the true gate should be at about 59. On one graph (where I made a mistake) there is a slight indication at 57.5. So that might be the true gate.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Mar 14, 2017 2:14 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

The correct gate definitely helps. With w3@L58 I got a very deep location at L15/R12/L58, i.e. the right contact point is at 11. Unfortunately it still does not open.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Mar 14, 2017 3:21 pm

Re: Attempting manipulation of a S&G 6642-001

Open! After 228 minutes. The combination was 95/45/58. After I knew that w3@58 it took just another 44 minutes to get it open. The false gates helped at the end. For w2 I knew it is a three gate wheel. WIth one gate at 12 the others must have been 45 and 79. 45 was slightly deeper, so I took that. After doing halve scan of w1 (0-45) I saw the two gates near together at 32.5 and 42.5. So the true gate hat to be around 95.
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