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Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 2:23 am
by madsamurai
MartinHewitt wrote:It is difficult to find the differences between the 68xx/69xx locks. What I found out is:

6580: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers, EN1300 Class A.
6804: Single bitted, key retaining, UL 437.
6805: Single bitted, not key retaining, UL 437.
6824: Double bitted, key retaining, UL 437.
6860: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers, EN1300 Class A.
6870: Double bitted, UL 437,
6880: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers, EN1300 Class B.
6890: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers, anti-compression, EN1300 Class C.
6980: As 6880, but with anti-x-ray?
6990: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers, anti-compression, anti-x-ray, EN1300 Class C.

There are photos of the 6860 at http://wiki.koksa.org/FAS_vds_Klasse1_verstellbar .

I do know 6860, 6880, 6890, 6990, but I have never seen the others. I can guess that the 680x has all levers on one side. Otherwise I have no idea what the difference is, e.g. of the 6580/6824/6870 to the 6880.


I can add that the 6804/5 are both 7 levers and all on the top, and that the 6870 is 9 levers and key retaining with randomly varied top/bottom levers (mine is 3 top, 3 bottom, 3 top). I've been hunting a 6824/25, but haven't found one... I believe it is 7 levers, the 6824 being the double-bitted version of the 6804, and the 6825 being the double-bitted version of the 6805.

I posted a teardown with lots of pics of the 6804 last year here and the 2-in-1 I made for it here if anyone's interested. I can take some pics of the 6870 this weekend if you'd like to see that one.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Thu Mar 22, 2018 8:18 am
by MartinHewitt
madsamurai wrote:randomly varied top/bottom levers (mine is 3 top, 3 bottom, 3 top)

I have read, that they changed from constant to random at some point.

madsamurai wrote:I can take some pics of the 6870 this weekend if you'd like to see that one.

Sure!

I added your information to my list.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 3:36 pm
by madsamurai
Sorry haven't had time to put up the pics I promised yet... spent some time reworking my 6804 pick with a steel tensioner rod to replace the brass one I used originally. I was able to pick that lock twice when I first made that pick, and never again since then... turns out the brass was not strong enough to push the bolt all the way even when the gates were aligned, so I may have been picking it but still not getting opens. With the steel and soldered flag, it's much stronger and I was able to pick it yesterday (finally!) once more.

I have everything laid out and planned out to put together a similar pick for my 6870... it'll need to be just different enough that I don't want to use one pick for both style locks. I expect it'll be pretty tough to pick (if possible at all), as the teeth are a little longer and the false gates deeper, and there seems to be a little play in the fence sliders that might seal the deal. I don't really expect the opposing levers to be a problem, since they're open enough on the opposite side to flip the pick around easy and should be obvious by feel which side is the active side.

In the mean time, does anyone have key specs for any of these? I have measured depth/spacing on the keys I have (and may even have it right), but would like to have an official reference. Also would love to find specs for the LaGard 2200/2270 series keys if they're out there.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Wed Apr 18, 2018 4:56 pm
by MartinHewitt
What information do you need? I have keys for the 68x0 and 2270.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 2:17 am
by madsamurai
MartinHewitt wrote:What information do you need? I have keys for the 68x0 and 2270.

I was just hoping to find standard depth and spacing info for the 68xx series... I've measured and I think I have all the bitting possibilities covered with the keys I have, but would like the official cut charts just for reference and to make some rough keys for picking practice.

On the 2200/2270 keys, I'm looking for the total number of "bitting" possibilities and the angle difference between each. I'm trying to build a pick/decoder similar to this (do they really get almost $2000 for these? wow.) and want to set up a cutting rig so I can mill some random "keys" in brass tubing so I can set different combinations for practice. From the picture of their decoder ring, there are at least 14 possible cut depths/angles, but can't see the entire thing so maybe it's even more. I have a few keys, but not enough to cover every possibility if there are that many, and no way to know how many are potentially between the cuts I have available to measure.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Thu Apr 19, 2018 8:21 am
by MartinHewitt
I can't help you with official data.

The 68x0 locks allow to encode 6 steps because the fence plates(?) have only 7 teeth. So if you have 6 positions you have all.

My 2270 key has the code numbers 17, 7, 11, 8 in case that helps. Making just a pick is easy. Adding a pointer and a square (with known positions) can be enough to convert it to a decoder, but I am not sure how useful that is as it can be reprogrammed with new keys when open.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Fri May 25, 2018 7:27 am
by Oliv

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2018 10:16 pm
by MartinHewitt
That should be a 6824. 7 levers, double-bitted, key retaining.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 9:00 pm
by MartinHewitt
An update ...

It is difficult to find the differences between the 68xx/69xx locks. What I found out is:

6490: Double bitted, key retaining?, 9 levers like in 6860, SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6490/)
6580: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in 6860 (+ 2 lever spacers?), SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6580/)
6804: Single bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12009&p=110685#p110685)
6805: Single bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6824: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?p=116818#p116818)
6825: Double bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6860: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers + 1 lever spacer at the back, EN1300 Class A. (http://wiki.koksa.org/FAS_vds_Klasse1_verstellbar)
6870: Double bitted, key retaining?, 9 levers like in 6860, UL 437.
6880: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, EN1300 Class B.
6890: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, anti-compression like in Hobbs' Protector, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, VdS 3.
6980: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers like in 6860 (+ 1 lever spacer?), SS3880, EN1300 Class B, VdS 2. (https://www.assaoem.se/en/site/assaoem/ ... assg-6980/)
6990: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers specific for the 6990, anti-compression like in Western Electric payphone lock, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, SS3880. (viewtopic.php?p=115965#p115965)

The locks with 4110 series levers have all levers on the top. The key change mechanism is like in the deposit lock with a screw. The key is a bit smaller than for the 6880 type locks and the double-bitted key does not have a groove at the tip along the stem.

The 6860 type locks can have levers on top and bottom. The orientation can be different, but it doesn't look fully random, e.g. BBBTTTBBB, TBTBBTTBT, BBTTBBTTT. So perhaps there is a set of standard orientations.

Pick for single bitted 4110 style locks: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12058&p=111347#p111347

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2018 10:33 pm
by MartinHewitt
Any idea what this lock is? http://www.safespares.co.uk/product/sg- ... able-lock/

The bitting looks like from a 68x0, but the cover doesn't look like any of the FAS locks I know of.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:24 pm
by MartinHewitt
Another update ...

What I found out about the 68xx/69xx locks (Changeable key locks from S&G) is:

6490: Double bitted, key retaining?, 9 levers like in 6860, SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6490/)
6580: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in 6860 (+ 2 lever spacers?), SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6580/)
6800: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 wheels + drive cam, curtain. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... hure_a.pdf http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/prima.pdf)
6804: Single bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12009&p=110685#p110685)
6805: Single bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6824: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?p=116818#p116818)
6825: Double bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6860: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers + 1 lever spacer at the back, EN1300 Class A. (http://wiki.koksa.org/FAS_vds_Klasse1_verstellbar)
6870: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, no EN1300 restrictions on key encoding, UL 437. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... rticle.pdf)
6880: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, EN1300 Class B, SS3150. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... rticle.pdf)
6890: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, anti-compression like in Hobbs' Protector, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, VdS 3.
6980: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers like in 6860 (+ 1 lever spacer?), SS3880, EN1300 Class B, VdS 2. (https://www.assaoem.se/en/site/assaoem/ ... assg-6980/)
6990: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers specific for the 6990, anti-compression like in Western Electric payphone lock, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, SS3880. (viewtopic.php?p=115965#p115965)

The locks with 4110 series levers have all levers on the top. The key change mechanism is like in the deposit lock with a screw. The key is a bit smaller than for the 6880 type locks and the double-bitted key does not have a groove at the tip along the stem. Pick for single bitted 4110 style locks: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12058&p=111347#p111347 .

The 68x0 type locks can have levers on top and bottom. The orientation can be different, but it doesn't look fully random, e.g. BBBTTTBBB, TBTBBTTBT, BBTTBBTTT. So perhaps there is a set of standard orientations. The initial version of the 68x0 locks had just alternating orientation.

The 68x4 and 68x5 locks were called Key-Op. The 6800 was also called C.L.O.C.K. and Prima-MP. The number 6800 is not unique in S&G. It was also used e.g. in "6800 series Key-Op locks". The 68x0 locks are normally called Sargent & Greenleaf FAS 68...

Patents: US5502990 for the 68x0 series. US4375159 for the 6800.

"optional carbide chip for drill resistance"?

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:04 pm
by Jaakko Fagerlund
I know, old post etc., but seems that no answer was given to the problem.

metalworm wrote:i got at fas 6890 on a gunsafe, it dont work as i should, it jams a litte halfway when i turn the key
i have ordered a new lock, but when i have it , i would lite to get i rigt and use it


One problem I've seen in these, espcially if mounted bolt down and the bolt having some mass attached to it, that the key will wear out the bolt throw portion inside the lock, leading to bolt not retracting enough. The other usual lockout is that the programming "jumps" for some reason, usually just one lever but enough so that the original key doesn't operate the lock at all.

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2018 1:09 pm
by MartinHewitt
Do you see the jumping only on the 6890 or on all 68x0 locks?

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:37 am
by MartinHewitt
Another update ... The CLOCK is really a 6801, not a 6800. Also added assumed difference between 6870 and 6880.

What I found out about the 68xx/69xx locks (Changeable key locks from S&G) is:

6490: Double bitted, key retaining?, 9 levers like in 6860, SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6490/)
6580: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in 6860 (+ 2 lever spacers?), SS3492:2005. (https://www.assaoem.se/sv/site/assaoems ... assg-6580/)
6801: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 wheels + drive cam, curtain. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... hure_a.pdf http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/prima.pdf)
6804: Single bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?f=100&t=12009&p=110685#p110685)
6805: Single bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6824: Double bitted, key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437. (viewtopic.php?p=116818#p116818)
6825: Double bitted, not key retaining, 7 levers like in deposit locks series 4110, UL 437.
6860: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers + 1 lever spacer at the back, EN1300 Class A. (http://wiki.koksa.org/FAS_vds_Klasse1_verstellbar)
6870: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, no EN1300 restrictions on key encoding, UL 437. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... rticle.pdf)
6880: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, EN1300 Class B, SS3150. (http://www.wheelpost.com/Documents_PDF/ ... rticle.pdf)
6890: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers like in 6860, anti-compression like in Hobbs' Protector, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, VdS 3.
6980: Double bitted, key retaining, 8 levers like in 6860 (+ 1 lever spacer?), SS3880, EN1300 Class B, VdS 2. (https://www.assaoem.se/en/site/assaoem/ ... assg-6980/)
6990: Double bitted, key retaining, 9 levers specific for the 6990, anti-compression like in Western Electric payphone lock, "anti-x-ray", EN1300 Class C, SS3880. (viewtopic.php?p=115965#p115965)

The locks with 4110 series levers have all levers on the top. The key change mechanism is like in the deposit lock with a screw. The key is a bit smaller than for the 6880 type locks and the double-bitted key does not have a groove at the tip along the stem. Pick for single bitted 4110 style locks: viewtopic.php?f=39&t=12058&p=111347#p111347 .

The 68x0 type locks can have levers on top and bottom. The orientation can be different, but it doesn't look fully random, e.g. BBBTTTBBB, TBTBBTTBT, BBTTBBTTT. So perhaps there is a set of standard orientations. The initial version of the 68x0 locks had just alternating orientation.

The difference between 6870 and 6880 is probably just on paper. Maybe the 6880 says in the manual "do not use the same key on two locks" or so.

The 6890/6990 are advertised with "anti x-ray". I don't see any relevant change to the 6880. So it is probably just a certification issue.

The 68x4 and 68x5 locks were called Key-Op ("6800 series Key-Op locks"). The 6801 was also called C.L.O.C.K. and Prima-MP. The 68x0 locks are normally called Sargent & Greenleaf FAS 68...

Patents: US5502990 for the 68x0 series. US4375159 for the 6801.

"optional carbide chip for drill resistance"?

Re: fas 6890

PostPosted: Sun Feb 03, 2019 8:40 pm
by safecracker33
20180609_111806.jpg
20180609_111858.jpg
20180609_111623.jpg
20180609_111914.jpg

C.L.O.C.K.
prima
very clever lock