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OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

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rusirius

Familiar Face

Posts: 26

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:41 pm

Location: Delaware

Post Thu Dec 15, 2016 10:13 pm

OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

Oldfast... First let me just say that between Femurat and you I feel like you've both been a vast resource of knowledge and I know I appreciate it greatly and I'm sure many many others on here do as well.

In my quest of learning the art of manipulation (and I don't just mean getting my girlfriend to swallow) :twisted: I've been watching your "spin sessions" on Youtube... Why? Because to me, they SCREAM efficiency... I think that's key (pun intended). I mean let's face it, it really doesn't take any tremendous skill to learn to manipulate. It's not some special thing you have to have superman tuned finger sensitivity or anything like that. I mean there's a lot to learn, don't get me wrong, but it's just a process you're learning, not really any special skill.

On the other hand, efficiency is totally different. You can't really learn that from a book. At least not very well.

Watching your videos has given me a lot to focus on. Keeping fingers in contact with the dial while spinning over large gaps to help control, etc. But anyway, my focus here is really more of a "back to basics".

So lets take your "Spin-Session 2" video... Starts out perfectly normal... Finding the contact points, particularly the RCP.

Then you go all wheels left and begin searching finding a gate at 78...

Now I didn't see you check for what wheel it was on... I'm assuming you either just surmised that it was probably wheel 3 since that's most common, or you were familiar with the lock and knew you'd find wheel 3 first... Either way, I'm still following...

Now is when I start to lose it though...

Am I seeing you LEAVE wheel parked at 78 and ONLY searching wheel 2? I mean I suppose it makes sense rather than trying to keep wheel 1 and 2 together, which would require a lot more spinning, but what if wheel 2 wasn't the next to indicate? Or again is it just based on that being the most likely scenario or your familiarity with this particular lock? If you were out "on a job" would you do the same?

Next you settle in on 30, except you DO seem to test which wheel it's on this time, which makes no sense if the 1st wheel was parked like I mentioned earlier... So I'm thinking I missed something here... LOL

After that, I'm COMPLETELY lost... You start at 50... Just ????? Because it's half way? LOL. Was there something that keyed you in on 50 as a starting point?

And I'm having a really hard time following what's happening after that point... Trying to imagine in my head where the wheels are and which one's you're moving but I lose it every time I try to track it... I dunnno if it's the motion blue from the spins or just my terrible skills at this point... LOL...

So anyway, point being... If at some point you're bored, and have nothing better to do and wouldn't mind giving a bit of a narrative on these vids, or at least one of them. I'm sure others, but I certainly know I myself would love to hear it so we can try to follow along a bit better.

Spin on!!!
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Fri Dec 16, 2016 1:43 am

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

Ha. I haven't watched that in a long long time.

Lookin' back on it now, it appears to be somewhat of a sloppy mess to be honest. lol
That was nearly 4 yrs ago. I was probably about a year into spinning at that point.
I remember being excited to share some of what I'd been up to at the time and I
didn't see any other vids out there on the subject (still don't really).

Although it's an authentic opening (combo unknown to me), it's not necessarily a
realistic view of manipulation. I mean, I get 5-7 minute openings here and there,
but I NEVER expect that. This was basically me going balls to the walls hoping
that one of several 'takes' would be worth posting. Nobody wants to watch me
spin for 40 minutes, lol. The video is more entertaining than it is educational.

All that being said - sure, there are some things you can learn from watching it.
It does carry a general 'rhythm' of how a manipulation would play out. I'm just
saying, don't take it as gospel by ANY means. But if you're intent on learning
what you can from it... I'm happy to put some context with it for you:

1. Starting w/ an AWR (all wheel right) rotation, a gate is located at 78.5

2. A high test was performed to tag it to w3. You'll see I throw
one wheel at a time off the gate (@78.5) and up to the test # (90)
78.5 78.5 90... w3
78.5 90 78.5... w2
90 78.5 78.5... w1

3. Wheels 1&2 AL ... 3 @ R78.5. I'm graphing 1&2 together around left.
Notice I'm placing w3 at its' known gate (78.5) before taking each reading.

4. A gate indicates at 30 and a low test is performed to tag it to wheel 2.
30 20 78.5
20 30 78.5
So 20 was the test #. Notice w3 is on its' gate during these configurations.

5. What you see me doing around 50 is figuring pickup differences in order
to convert the rotational direction for the gates I found on wheels 1 & 2.
? 30 78.5
becomes...
? 29 79

6. I now brute force w1 using a LRL rotation. Opens @ 52 29 79


Let me add several things that I would do differently today:

* The rotational conversion was both senseless and risky. I would
finish the manipulation the same way I started it - with a RLR rotation.

* I would spend more time to confirm which wheel is indicating.

* I stopped my initial AWR after finding a gate at 78.5. Today, I would
finish out that rotation rather than immediately pursuing the gate. Often
more will be revealed. If not another gate, something you can use later.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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rusirius

Familiar Face

Posts: 26

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:41 pm

Location: Delaware

Post Fri Dec 16, 2016 2:38 pm

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

Oldfast wrote:I remember being excited to share some of what I'd been up to at the time and I
didn't see any other vids out there on the subject (still don't really).


That's a good point. I realize the hesitation some may have for posting videos explaining detail by detail (though I personally find it silly since all the info is out there and quite easy to find) but there don't seem to be any video of just general spinning other than the 3 you have. Perhaps some think it's not that important, but I dunno... For me personally, as long as it's not moving way to fast to keep track of I can learn a lot more by watching someone else do something that I can by reading and often times even doing myself.

*Ahhhem*... Perhaps SOMEONE should make a few more of these vids with refined technique and if no commentary at least a post pointing out any particular things a newbie spinner such as myself should pay special attention to.

Oldfast wrote:...Nobody wants to watch me spin for 40 minutes, lol.

I wouldn't say "nobody"... I'd damn sure watch it... :D

Oldfast wrote: I'm just saying, don't take it as gospel by ANY means. But if you're intent on learning
what you can from it... I'm happy to put some context with it for you:

Oh no, I definitely get that. But not only is it fascinating to me to watch things like this, and not only do I think there is still lots to be learned from it even though it's intent was to be entertainment not educational, but there's something to be said for "going balls to the wall" in terms of efficiency. As I said before even subtle things like watching how during those full spins you're letting your finger follow around keeping contact with the lock. It's a control thing... Despite how fast it's spinning you're still able to know precisely where the dial is due to never letting your finger lose contact. Things like that are gems in the rough if you ask me.

Oldfast wrote:1. Starting w/ an AWR (all wheel right) rotation, a gate is located at 78.5

You'll note in my original post I said AWL. I'm glad this came up! Because obviously I was confused about the different between AWL and AWR...

You see, for some reason, I was thinking in terms of the number itself, i.e. all the wheels are lined up to a specific number, and that number is being continuously moved counter-clockwise, or to the left... So in my mind this was AWL.

But I completely understand that it would make more sense to call this AWR since the dial ITSELF must be turned clockwise until all wheels are grabbed to get into this state. I suppose this was along the same lines of me thinking that wheel 1 would be the first wheel to be picked up by the cam, rather than the wheel that corresponded to the first number of the combination. The good news is, now I, and any other newb that might come across this post and have the same confusion, should have a much clearer understanding.

Oldfast wrote:2. A high test was performed to tag it to w3. You'll see I throw
one wheel at a time off the gate (@78.5) and up to the test # (90)
78.5 78.5 90... w3
78.5 90 78.5... w2
90 78.5 78.5... w1

This is exactly what I'm talking about... First of all, I'm not sure why, but I missed this altogether before you explained it. I didn't think you tested it at all. But more importantly than that, this beautiful gem is exactly what I mean about efficiency. To you and others who have been spinning for a while you probably don't even think about it, but to me and I'm sure others just getting started it makes a big difference.

What you ask? Because in my mind, once I find the first gate... When I'm thinking about testing it on the wheels it's like my mind is switching gears... Yes, I know it sounds crazy but I would actually do a reset of sorts... Dialing in each entire combo one by one...

But doing it this way is obviously MUCH more efficient... Move the 3rd wheel off and test... Move the second wheel off, put the 3rd back and test... Move the first wheel off and put the second and third back. MUCH more fluid and much easier to "follow" without losing track.

Oldfast wrote:3. Wheels 1&2 AL ... 3 @ R78.5. I'm graphing 1&2 together around left.
Notice I'm placing w3 at its' known gate (78.5) before taking each reading.

Yeah, no that I've followed along with the previous better I can clearly see now that you are moving both 1&2 together.

Oldfast wrote:4. A gate indicates at 30 and a low test is performed to tag it to wheel 2.
30 20 78.5
20 30 78.5
So 20 was the test #. Notice w3 is on its' gate during these configurations.

Yes, got it!

Oldfast wrote:5. What you see me doing around 50 is figuring pickup differences in order
to convert the rotational direction for the gates I found on wheels 1 & 2.
? 30 78.5
becomes...
? 29 79

Ahhhhh, Ok NOW I see... Yeah, this part COMPLETELY lost me at first... :D

Oldfast wrote:6. I now brute force w1 using a LRL rotation. Opens @ 52 29 79

Yup, got it!

Oldfast wrote:* The rotational conversion was both senseless and risky. I would
finish the manipulation the same way I started it - with a RLR rotation.

Gotcha... Now out of curiosity, do you normally start AWR or AWL? Is there a reason you prefer that way? Or just habit? Let's say you start with AWL and the first gate indicates on wheel 2... Would you now work AWL or AWR? Any particular reason? (again if it's not clear I'm digging at efficiency here)

Honestly, in all the posts and documents I've read on manipulation, though efficiency is mentioned, I rarely see it actually discussed. I suppose for most it really doesn't matter... It's just getting an open... I dunno though, for me, maybe it's the IT/hacker inside me, but I'm always more fascinated by algorithms and doing things in the most efficient manner. Writing the "least amount of code" to accomplish a task as it were.

Oldfast wrote:* I stopped my initial AWR after finding a gate at 78.5. Today, I would
finish out that rotation rather than immediately pursuing the gate. Often
more will be revealed. If not another gate, something you can use later.


Do you really feel that it's worth it though? I mean I suppose you do, given you just said that's how you would do it today... LOL.. How often do you see other gates actually indicate on a full sweep like that? I would think it would be more likely that it didn't, or that any indication of a gate other than the primary one would be buried too deeply in other noise that it wouldn't really be useful at all.

On the other hand, clearly you have a good reason for saying this, so I'd love to hear the reasoning or experience you have that gives you that feeling that it's worth it to spend the extra time.

Last but not least... I just want to say a big Thank You once again... To you and to all the others on this forum and others who are always willing to lend and ear and a bit of advice. It's folks like you that make this hobby far more enjoyable than it would be otherwise!
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:47 am

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

rusirius wrote:
Oldfast wrote:1. Starting w/ an AWR (all wheel right) rotation, a gate is located at 78.5

You'll note in my original post I said AWL. I'm glad this came up! Because obviously I was confused about the different between AWL and AWR...

You see, for some reason, I was thinking in terms of the number itself, i.e. all the wheels are lined up to a specific number, and that number is being continuously moved counter-clockwise, or to the left... So in my mind this was AWL.

You're not alone. Many, many people seem to somehow get this mixed up in their mind. And I believe it's because
of the exact reason you've described here - they're thinking of it in terms of the numbers, ascending & descending.

When instructing people, I've found it helpful if I liken it to steering a vehicle with your hand at the top of the wheel.

rusirius wrote:
Oldfast wrote:2. A high test was performed to tag it to w3. You'll see I throw
one wheel at a time off the gate (@78.5) and up to the test # (90)
78.5 78.5 90... w3
78.5 90 78.5... w2
90 78.5 78.5... w1

This is exactly what I'm talking about... First of all, I'm not sure why, but I missed this altogether before you explained it. I didn't think you tested it at all. But more importantly than that, this beautiful gem is exactly what I mean about efficiency. To you and others who have been spinning for a while you probably don't even think about it, but to me and I'm sure others just getting started it makes a big difference.

What you ask? Because in my mind, once I find the first gate... When I'm thinking about testing it on the wheels it's like my mind is switching gears... Yes, I know it sounds crazy but I would actually do a reset of sorts... Dialing in each entire combo one by one...

But doing it this way is obviously MUCH more efficient... Move the 3rd wheel off and test... Move the second wheel off, put the 3rd back and test... Move the first wheel off and put the second and third back. MUCH more fluid and much easier to "follow" without losing track.

Doesn't sound crazy at all. That's how you were taught... that's how I was taught too.
Nearly every book on the topic presents it as three "test or trial" combinations that
are to be dialed in separately, clearing the dial between each configuration.

I can only assume the authors thought this would be easier for the beginner. Not only in
terms of performing it, but also in understanding what you're doing & why you're doing it.

I guess *shrugs* I dunno.

rusirius wrote:
Oldfast wrote:* The rotational conversion was both senseless and risky. I would
finish the manipulation the same way I started it - with a RLR rotation.

Gotcha... Now out of curiosity, do you normally start AWR or AWL? Is there a reason you prefer that way? Or just habit? Let's say you start with AWL and the first gate indicates on wheel 2... Would you now work AWL or AWR? Any particular reason? (again if it's not clear I'm digging at efficiency here)

For me it's based on time & fluency. Well... not that it saves me a ton of time... but I prefer
to approach the CP in one smooth motion, w/o having to switch directions in order to take
a reading. But no, I will not convert directions just to keep it that way for my next run.

If it's the RCP I'm after (as w/ most locks), I'll start with an AWR rotation. With some locks
though, it's the left CP that will feed you the most info. In this case I'll start with an AWL.
There are exceptions to both though. But generally this is my preference.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
<<

Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Dec 18, 2016 3:48 am

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

rusirius wrote:
Oldfast wrote:* I stopped my initial AWR after finding a gate at 78.5. Today, I would
finish out that rotation rather than immediately pursuing the gate. Often
more will be revealed. If not another gate, something you can use later.

Do you really feel that it's worth it though? I mean I suppose you do, given you just said that's how you would do it today... LOL.. How often do you see other gates actually indicate on a full sweep like that? I would think it would be more likely that it didn't, or that any indication of a gate other than the primary one would be buried too deeply in other noise that it wouldn't really be useful at all.

On the other hand, clearly you have a good reason for saying this, so I'd love to hear the reasoning or experience you have that gives you that feeling that it's worth it to spend the extra time.

Geez, quite a discussion could be had on that really. I suppose that's one of the things I like about all this -
many means to the same end. We all have different thoughts, preferences, takes, etc. You and Femurat
were talking about w2 indicating first. He prefers to run w1 next. I myself would run 3 w/o a 2nd thought.
Neither of us are wrong. We both may fail. Then, we'll each be running the others' preferred wheel. lol

You may excel and/or have trouble with certain parts of the manipulation process.
Based solely on that, you might decide to take a particular path or avoid another.

But normally it's time, probability, and payoff that surround our decisions.
The condition of the lock you're working on will play a huge factor as well!

Thinking in terms of time, we all know this takes longer than that. But exactly how much longer?
A while back, I went so far as to time myself for a number of runs to come up with an average.
Turned out to be one of the best things I could've done. Really opened my eyes to some things.
Changed not only how I approach a lock, but my thought process involving that 'fork in the road'.
Under IDEAL conditions (crisp CP's, dial spins smooth, low wheel pack tension, etc.) I concluded:

02:45... for an all wheels rotation (50 readings)
05:15... to run 1&2 around, 3 @ known gate
08:00... to run 1 around, 2&3 @ known gates

This really helped me to put things in perspective. So now, armed with some actual data,
lets look at your question. My AWR brings me a gate bout 2 minutes in. Finishing out the
rotation is another 60 seconds. If nothing more is there, I'm ok with that; the cost was low.
However, if I catch even a whisper of a gate, the payoff could be substantial. It may prompt
me to begin my search of 1&2 in that vicinity. The process that normally takes over 5 mins
just got reduced to 15 seconds. I lost 1 min in phase one but gained 5 mins. in phase 2.

In fact, after finding a gate w/ an all wheels rotation, I'll sometimes invest a few more mins
to take all wheels around in the other direction! Until I actually had my times in front of me
I never considered doing such a thing. It seemed like an awful lot of extra work and time.
In reality both rotations total about 6 mins! Often (but not always), the info I gain from both
can make for some real sweet spinnin' from there on.

Of course, both of the above examples can and have gone south and left me with shit.
Consideration of 'worse case scenario' is always part of the decision making process.
In these 2 cases, I can safely assume wasted time will never total more than 3-6 mins.
IF NOTHING ELSE, I'll look at it like this: I get to spend more time doing what I love :mrgreen:

The condition of a lock could immediately double, even quadruple my times listed above.
Mushy, light contact points. Or a sticky dial might force me to hit my CP 3,4,5 times for
each and every reading. Maybe the gate I find is subtle at best, and took some effort to
even confirm it. If this were the case then the answer to your question would be, no. It
would probably not be worth the time to finish out the rotation. My chances at that point
would seem better if I had one of the wheels on its' known gate while running the others.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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rusirius

Familiar Face

Posts: 26

Joined: Tue Dec 06, 2016 10:41 pm

Location: Delaware

Post Mon Dec 19, 2016 1:23 pm

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

Mike.... It is Mike isn't it? I'm Greg btw...

I just want to give you a heartfelt Thank You!

THIS is exactly the kind of conversation that I was looking for and that I think can greatly benefit the community as a whole. I've done my fair share of research since beginning this journey and I've never really seen any sort of discussion like this. I mean sure there's tidbits here and there about doing things a certain way, but never really a discussion about WHY...

I'm going to have to take some timings myself, as I KNOW beyond a shadow of a doubt that my figures are probably double if not triple yours... However, I'm sure the exact same pattern will emerge... Well, it kinda has to really... And it's that ratio that really becomes key... Because no matter who you are, or what your times would be, if the ratio stays about the same (and one would assume it would) then it really does help tremendously in deciding exactly how to proceed.

But I agree now, that to NOT finish the rotation would almost be silly...
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Oldfast

User avatar

OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 3926

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Tue Dec 20, 2016 4:04 am

Re: OldFast!!! Can you explain this???

rusirius wrote:...I just want to give you a heartfelt Thank You!

You're very welcome. Hope it helps in some small way as you begin this wonderfully exciting journey.

Just keep in mind... this is only one fellas take on things. And even some of my preferences that
I've talked about here may change in time. There's always something more, something different.
As soon as I think I know somethin', I've closed myself off to other possibilities and opportunities.

One other thing I'll mention - just based I my own personal journey so far: Over the years there's been
multiple occasions where I became quite anxious to know a 'certain something'. Looking back now....
I wish I had just settled down a bit, lol. If you are diligently working, spinning every day, many of the
things you're after will naturally be revealed over time.

I dunno, that's how it was for me anyway. Hell, it still is! Those exciting 'ah-ha' moments still pop up.
One such nugget of joy happened recently even. It's something I've been after for what seems like
forever. In my mind it had almost become the holy grail... I had begun to wonder if I'd ever see the
day. And yet, all of a sudden, there it was! It only took 4 YEARS. Haaaaa! Trust your struggle.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911

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