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My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

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madsamurai

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Post Fri Jan 13, 2017 5:48 pm

My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Image


So, I finally received my long-awaited (4 whole days!) S&G 6741-039... I can't remember being so excited about something for long time - I felt like a kid at Christmas when UPS showed up. Thought I'd share a little about our first day together, since it's because of you guys that I was actually able to successfully manipulate it. Big thanks again to Oldfast and Daggers especially, and a dozen other names I just can't remember yet because I'm new and names take me a while.

First, I say I successfully manipulated it, which is true-ish... I knew the combination before I started (it was written huge on the inside of the box lid, so couldn't not see it), but I did my best to not cheat and only use that knowledge to verify my results. I also didn't brute-force the last number because I knew it already and it was just after 1am and my shoulders... nobody told me about the shoulder cramps! Anyway, for the record, the combination as written was 64-24-52... more on that later.

So of course, the first thing was to mount it... found a scrap board and measured/drilled and got it all set up square and nice, and just set it in a small flat vice I have to keep it straight. Works for now, tho I want to do something a little nicer once my woodshop is unpacked again. I've left the back off, partly because I wanted to be able to examine the parts, but mostly because I'm planning on remounting it later and didn't want to cut down the spindle bolt yet. Only problem with that is the re-locker, but turns out that's not really a problem except I can't actually retract the bolt at the end. I would just take it out, but it's a new lock and it's hard for me to break new things, even knowing it won't hurt.

After a break for dinner, I started into my first AWL graph... it was then that I realized there was some slop in the wheel - my readings were pretty random, and they would even change slightly between having it leaned back a little or straight vertical, and I could see the spindle bolt 'bounce' a little as I touched the LCP. So I had to backtrack a bit and added a few layers of post-it note paper behind the lock to shim it out a bit, re-centered it and got it rolling smooth again, and started over. I immediately saw a noticeable difference in my graph, contact points were much more consistent. There's still a little bit of wobble, but only if I touched my contact points too hard... I've got a light touch already from other hobbies, so it wasn't hard for me to avoid. I'm tempted to put a light spring-washer behind the dial to eliminate that but I figured they're not going to be that way in the real-world, so I shouldn't cheat on my practice lock and spoil myself.

So, my first graph went surprisingly well... AWL graph clearly showed me two of my numbers and pretty much nothing else, so I felt reassured that I was on the right track.
Image

At first, I'll admit, I picked 24 because I knew 24 was in my combo, but re-reading I saw that it's the middle of the gate we're looking for, and my graph put that closer to L25. Of course, that's actually correct as my 24 is wheel 2 and is R24, so would be offset by one digit turning left... That didn't occur to me 'til later, but didn't really play into the solve anyway. There was also a pretty good signature at 52, which I was happy to see knowing it was another of my digits.

High-low testing confused me for a solid 2 hours... 4x left, 3x right... 4x right, 2x left... "wait, did I do that right? crap." I kept mis-counting turns or starting the wrong direction. What really helped was to stop counting turns and start thinking in terms of what was happening... around once picking up wheel three, around again picking up 2, etc. Once I started thinking that way instead of counting the times I passed numbers, everything got a good deal simpler and I stopped screwing up (as often). It was about that point where it occurred to me I should have picked 25 instead of 24 anyway, so I started again. So on my graph there, it shows H/L combinations with 24 (14/34), but in actuality the measurements and results are based on 25 (15/35). As you can see, my results still didn't lead to much confidence, and even suggested L25 was wheel 3, which I knew was wrong. H/L tests for L52 seemed much less ambiguous, clearly pointing to w3 on both tests, and I like to think I would've rolled with that even if I didn't know it was right.

So, X-X-L52... had my first number from my first graph of my first lock... big moment. On to graph 2, 1&2 AR/3@L52.
Image

Still a bit of strange randomness on the RCP, but a clear drop from 25-21, so rolled with 23.5 and H/L testing verified w2. This went much more smoothly overall... the only time I got momentarily confused was when I passed the 52 point and nearly added an extra turn to set w3, but caught myself pretty quickly. I was a little surprised there was no indication on either graph of 64, but I guess that's how these things go.

So I found X-R23.5-L52 legitimately, I think. Since I knew w1 was 64, I didn't bother with brute forcing that one (it was already after 1am), tho I did test the combo at 65, which is what I would have tried if I was testing every 2.5 increments... And it did open, so the final combination I ended up with would have been 65-23.5-52. Looking at the gate alignment, I think the real combo is 64.5-23.5-52 for them to be perfectly in-line, but this lock has a +/- 1.5 dialing tolerance.

So there you have it. Took somewhere around 5-6 hours, but a lot of that was being confused by the hi/low test... I think the next one should go a good deal quicker. Of course, I don't have a change key so I have to wait for that now, but in the mean time I have another challenger - a stack-on gun safe with a direct-access (is that the proper term?) dial combination... just need to get it in the house.

Thanks for watchin' :D
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Sat Jan 14, 2017 4:40 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

:spinning: Very nice. VERY nice! I can see you learned a great deal throughout
your very first manipulation. And you're quickly becoming aware of wheel
movement too... much quicker than I did, lol. Very easy to get lost at first.

Not much constructive criticism to be had here. But I will say....

The hi/low tests for the gate @ 23.5 on your second graph:
Remember, you've already determined w3's gate to be 52.
So you want to place w3 @ 52 during all 4 test configurations.
Make sense? You're testing/throwing only wheels 1 & 2 now.


madsamurai wrote:.....Of course, I don't have a change key so I have to wait for that now, but in the mean time I have another challenger - a stack-on gun safe with a direct-access (is that the proper term?) dial combination... just need to get it in the house.

I've heard these referred to in a number of ways. But usually "direct entry" or "straight-in-tailpiece".

Also, you were talking about rotational differences in your other post. This S&G you're currently working with has movable flys which makes these variances fairly small - usually something like 1 to 2.5 inc differences. And as you already noticed, to account for these differences you go passed/beyond the original number when coming from the other direction.

But you'll notice a couple things with the direct entry type lock you'll be playing with soon. First, the rotational differences are much MUCH larger. Second, you account for them by stopping prior to / before the original number. This is all due to the fixed drive pins in these locks. It'll make more sense I'm sure when you get your hands on it.

Anyway, great job on this Chad! Very excited for ya. HA! I really am.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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madsamurai

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Post Sat Jan 14, 2017 6:49 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Oldfast wrote:The hi/low tests for the gate @ 23.5 on your second graph:
Remember, you've already determined w3's gate to be 52.
So you want to place w3 @ 52 during all 4 test configurations.
Make sense? You're testing/throwing only wheels 1 & 2 now.

That does make sense, glad you caught that or I probably would've missed it again the next time around.

Also, you were talking about rotational differences in your other post. This S&G you're currently working with has movable flys which makes these variances fairly small - usually something like 1 to 2.5 inc differences. And as you already noticed, to account for these differences you go passed/beyond the original number when coming from the other direction.

Yep, I think I had that wrong, too. I just checked it again, and checked both directions this time. The offsets are small, and it seems they're different according to direction... if I set all left and come back right, pickup for w3 is -1, w2 is -1.5, and w1 is -2. If I go all right and come back left, pickup for w3 is +.5, w2 is +1 and w1 is +1.5. Is that typical that they would be different like that?

But you'll notice a couple things with the direct entry type lock you'll be playing with soon. First, the rotational differences are much MUCH larger. Second, you account for them by stopping prior to / before the original number. This is all due to the fixed drive pins in these locks. It'll make more sense I'm sure when you get your hands on it.

I will definitely keep that in mind. I'll be playing with that one Sunday, very curious to see how differently it plays out. I don't have a combination to verify as I go on that one.

Thanks!
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Jan 14, 2017 7:35 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

madsamurai wrote:....Yep, I think I had that wrong, too. I just checked it again, and checked both directions this time. The offsets are small, and it seems they're different according to direction... if I set all left and come back right, pickup for w3 is -1, w2 is -1.5, and w1 is -2. If I go all right and come back left, pickup for w3 is +.5, w2 is +1 and w1 is +1.5. Is that typical that they would be different like that?

I've noticed that too sometimes! Just how typical it is though I can't say for sure.
Maybe someone who has experienced more locks over the years will chime in.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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madsamurai

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Post Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:55 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

So, looking again at hi/low tests on graph 2, and considering the offset (w3 L52=R51), would this be the correct set of sequences?

Low:
L13.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L13.5 - R51
High:
L33.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L33.5 - R51

This thing where the offset changes by direction is kinda messing with my logic... L52 converts to R51, but R51 converts to L51.5! I feel like that has to be wrong, but it's not...
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sun Jan 15, 2017 6:27 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

madsamurai wrote:....if I set all left and come back right, pickup for w3 is -1, w2 is -1.5, and w1 is -2.
If I go all right and come back left, pickup for w3 is +.5, w2 is +1 and w1 is +1.5.

Given what you found earlier (above)... yes, I believe you've utilized it correctly (below)

madsamurai wrote:Low:
L13.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L13.5 - R51
High:
L33.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L33.5 - R51


That being said.... some people would rather avoid conversions if at all possible as it introduces room for error.
Yes, generally it should put you in the right place. But it's not an absolute. Personally, I don't recall being
burned from a bad conversion - but the possibility is there. Food for thought; other options could be:

1. Use what you've learned HERE. Bring w3 AR passing 50 by a ways... pick it back up AL... bring it to 52.

L13.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L13.5 - R51 ..........So this will now be dialed R-L-L . . . . . R23.5 - L13.5 - L52
High:
L33.5 - R23.5 - L52
R23.5 - L33.5 - R51 ..........So this will now be dialed R-L-L . . . . . R23.5 - L33.5 - L52

2. You could find true center with right rotation. Leave wheels 1&2 @ L25, take w3 AR
through the the gate signature around 50. Take readings every inc and find true center.



You've become aware of rotational differences early on. For that reason, your tests are spot-on.
You are mindful of what direction you initially found a gate with & you're careful to incorporate
that into the tests. You found 23.5 w/ right rotation & all you're test configurations reflect that.

Very nice.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
http://www.youtube.com/Oldfast911
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sun Jan 15, 2017 3:05 pm

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Great job and great first opening :) At this early on it is easier for you to learn to do high/low testing in other order so you don't have to dial so much (thus less errors) and it makes it quicker.

So instead of this:
14 24 24
24 14 24
24 24 14

Do this:
24 24 14
24 14 24
14 24 24
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tumbl3r

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Post Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:14 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

VERY nice job, Chad! Very nice indeed! I just read through your manipulation, and I have to say, you're picking this stuff up much more quickly than I did. My first spin took an entire weekend, LOL. Wheels 1 and 2 on Saturday and W3 on Sunday with a good night sleep in between. High/Low testing confused me into my third spin, and even now I have to plan it out on paper before I actually do it. It seems like you really have a knack for this, and I'm glad you're here and able to learn from the very best! These guys are such amazing mentors!
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madsamurai

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Post Mon Jan 16, 2017 6:33 pm

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

@Oldfast: after further messings around, I think I may have been hitting those pickup points a little harder than I thought, and they may be the same both ways... which lends to your suggestion that conversion probably isn't the best practice. I understand about how to set left and then left again, but thought it would save a little spinning (and potential confusion) to convert first, but I think I'll stick to doing it proper from here on. I'll also try your trick for finding true center, that sounds useful.

@Jaakko, thanks for the tip! I think I saw that posted somewhere else (maybe was Oldfast, but I've read so much now I can't remember or find it again). I'll give that a shot, it makes sense.

@tumbl3r: Thanks, man... I wish I could say I was having the same luck with that direct entry safe I'm working on now, it's been trickier than I expected to set up a rig to get consistent measurements, I've got about 6 hours of graphing and re-graphing on that thing, but I think I've got it close. I'll post that stuff once I get it open (and get some sleep... I'm wrecked from a very early work day today) or if I don't pretty soon. There's some interesting stuff in the graphs that doesn't quite make sense to me yet. As for picking it up quickly, I'm one of those lucky guys that can see this kind of stuff very clearly in my head, so after all the reading here I had a pretty good idea what I was doing when I started... still a few things that had to be hands-on to really wrap my brain around. It was the same for tumbler locks and picking... in fact I have a modified cylinder design in my head I'm looking forward to making and sharing with you, but need to get access to a machine shop. I also have a nifty and simple solution for getting precise 1/10 increment readings on dials without eye-balling and guestimating that I think everyone here is going to like, but that's all I'm gonna say about it until I have it made... hope to do that tomorrow or Weds. I like to solve puzzles and problems, and locksmithing/picking/manipulating is a whole slew of those just begging to be solved... I just wish it hadn't taken me so long to discover it.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Mon Jan 16, 2017 7:04 pm

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

madsamurai wrote:I also have a nifty and simple solution for getting precise 1/10 increment readings on dials without eye-balling and guestimating that I think everyone here is going to like, but that's all I'm gonna say about it until I have it made... hope to do that tomorrow or Weds.

Is that something different than the long needle indicator or a Vernier scale or a webcam pointing down on the dial or an optical encoder attached to the dial like I do?
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madsamurai

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Post Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:25 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:
madsamurai wrote:I also have a nifty and simple solution for getting precise 1/10 increment readings on dials without eye-balling and guestimating that I think everyone here is going to like, but that's all I'm gonna say about it until I have it made... hope to do that tomorrow or Weds.

Is that something different than the long needle indicator or a Vernier scale or a webcam pointing down on the dial or an optical encoder attached to the dial like I do?


Vernier scale... hadn't seen anyone mention using one yet. Guess I'm not as genius as I thought ;)
Do you have pics up of your optical encoder? I'd like to see how that works.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Tue Jan 17, 2017 4:55 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

madsamurai wrote:
Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:
madsamurai wrote:I also have a nifty and simple solution for getting precise 1/10 increment readings on dials without eye-balling and guestimating that I think everyone here is going to like, but that's all I'm gonna say about it until I have it made... hope to do that tomorrow or Weds.

Is that something different than the long needle indicator or a Vernier scale or a webcam pointing down on the dial or an optical encoder attached to the dial like I do?

Vernier scale... hadn't seen anyone mention using one yet. Guess I'm not as genius as I thought ;)
Do you have pics up of your optical encoder? I'd like to see how that works.

Here you can see a few verniers: https://www.google.fi/search?q=safe+man ... BygA&dpr=1

And no, I currently have no pictures (that I remember) up. It is basically just an optical quadrature encoder that is attached to the dial with doublesided tape or whatever and then an Arduino reads it and spits out the measurement on a display and over serial port.
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madsamurai

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Post Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:43 am

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Yep, truth is, I couldn't remember what a vernier scale was called or a quick search would have shown me the 50 times it's been mentioned here... I have a micrometer from my machining days that uses the vernier for the ten-thousandth reading, and it popped into my head when I was thinking of a better way to divide increments. I had seen posts of taped pins and magnifiers, etc, but hadn't seen that yet. Hope I didn't come off as presumptuous...
Anyway, the optical quadrature encoder and Arduino getup sounds pretty brilliant... I've been getting into Arduino projects a bit lately anyway, will have to add that to my project list.
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madsamurai

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Post Wed Jan 18, 2017 5:31 pm

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

Just got that safe opened! It was a lot tougher than I expected, and in hindsight I wasted a lot of time trying things I shouldn't have been bothering with, but what a feeling when that thing finally turned! I laughed out loud... I'm all giddy :)

Sadly, I have to get on some actual work now, but will post details later on...
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Wed Jan 18, 2017 6:11 pm

Re: My first S&G 6741 manipulation - So it begins...

madsamurai wrote:Hope I didn't come off as presumptuous...

Nah, it's always good if you reinvent the wheel on your own without knowing it is already in use, as that exercises your brains to be "on lookout" for ideas :) And to me it tells about your skills of adapting knowledge from one area to another.
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