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Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:42 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Lady calls me up - she's a bit further from me than usual. Nothin' crazy though. 'Bout a 2 hr round trip.

Someone had tried to forcibly open her safe some 20 yrs ago. And it's still packed with her belongings.
They had attacked both the handle & the dial. She assured me though, albeit rough, the dial does turn.

It didn't sound all too promising but it was worth some further dialog. Unable to take a photo, let alone
text or email it to me, the next best thing was to get her in front of the safe for a minute while we talk.

But I couldn't coax her to walk into the garage - she said it "was cold out there". Waitaaa...what?! lol.
Don't get me wrong; she turned out to be a real pleasure to visit. But what's wrong with this picture?
Here I am, possibly willing to drive a couple hours...... yet she's unwilling to take a couple steps. lol

Having no clue as to the make/model of the safe or the extent of damage to it, there were plenty of
reasons to pass on this one. But I thought "What the hell else I got to do on a Friday afternoon?!
Besides, might be a nice surprise opposed to my usual pre- prep/research rituals. Who knows.


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Ok, lol... so it didn't turn out to be the spectacular safecracking surprise trip I had hoped. Another old Sentry.
I've run into several of these this winter now. I still dunno the exact model# for these (if there was one),
but I suspect they were all made 50-70 years ago and apparently were quite popular at the time.

The lower hinge is broke, half a handle remains, and the dial was pried on in a couple areas around the edge.
Definitely on its' way out. As nasty as it is, everything was functioning just fine - so I had no trouble opening it.

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The door, nearly ready to fall off anyway, came home with me. The rest is destined for the junk yard.

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Home in the lockroom, thought I'd take a couple pics for you guys - so you can see the appearance of a gate.
The reading goes up 3 lines (a massive 3/4" jump). Keep in mind that this happens to be a fairly drastic one.
Some indications will be more subtle. But even the smaller fluctuations will still normally be 1 or more lines.

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HERE'S a couple others. You'll notice some slight design variations between the three (mostly exterior).
But the locks are all basically the same: 3-wheel (2 wheels + drive wheel) for a 3 number combination.
Proper dialing for these is LRL I believe. The drive wheel has no false gates and is easily determined.

With no false gate on the drive wheel, it's worth briefly exploring wheels 1&2 through sound & feel:
AWL & AWR. If nothin' - park w1 quarterly, each time bringing 2&3 around. Still nothin' - laser time.

As mentioned earlier, there's no need for extended beam travel with these. Positioning a graph
on the face/edge of the safe allows approximately 10" of travel and provides sufficient fluctuation.
Also no need for a magnet & spring setup for consistent handle pull - manually turning it is just fine.

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Last edited by Oldfast on Fri Feb 17, 2017 1:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:48 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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79" H . . 45" W . . 30" D


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I'd imagine this is the largest cabinet they offered. Wider maybe, but any taller just wouldn't be practical. lol

The General Fireproofing Co. operated from 1902 - 1989, and produced safes from 1912 - 1940.
This Allsteel Safe then may be somewhere between 77 and 105 yrs old. We might narrow this
time frame down a bit more considering the lock; Assuming it is original to this container, the
Yale OC-5 was made from 1930-1950. So now we're looking at around a 77-87 yr. old box.


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After some experimenting, I eventually settled on positioning my pickups around 10 & 11 o'clock.
However, if anyone with experience amplifying a RH OC-5 has some different thoughts on
pickup positions? - I'm all ears, lol. I'd happily give 'em a try the next time around.


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After having my ass handed to me for some time... this truly was a wonderfully satisfying sight.
Nobody in business (or in their right mind for that matter, lol) would've put in the time I did on this one.
HOWEVER, I'm really glad I hung in as long as I did; not only for the opening, but what I gained was some
extremely valuable insights into this type of lock. Instead of dreading it, I now can't wait to meet another one!


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Interesting to see an old DIEBOLD SC600 Safe Alarm still resides inside this one. Instructions for
"Daily Closing Procedure" posted on the upper right corner on the back side of the right-hand door.

Image..Image
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As always, most of my interest is with the lock though. First thing I notice are the #'s etched into the cover plate.
Locks of this age wear in several different ways. One of the results can be a shift in the combination settings.
Each mesh-change wheel now opens on a slightly different number than it was set to. By taking note of the
necessary adjustments, a safe-tech can reduce frustrations the second time around. So here, if I want w1
to open at 80 I must set it at 81. If I recall, during my manipulation I found true center to be about 78.5


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And there she is. One of the most classic lock designs of all time (in my opinion) - the Yale 0C-5 friction fence.
Effective & resilient. Born between 1930-50, a staggering number of these are still around - working flawlessly.

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All laid out ready for de-greasing. Sorry Fritz, no after-pics this time. I was getting tired. lol
Once everything is thoroughly clean I can meticulously scrutinize each part.
Then a combo-change, a proper lube job, and reassembly.

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Note: Again on wheel settings; w1 is set to 80, yet my spinnin' brought me to find 78.5. Likewise for 35 & 20.

Immediately noticing a couple of large divots between some of the teeth on the cam,
I'm prompted to go look over the lock case (which still needs to be cleaned anyway).

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This lock has been drilled.... twice. Possibly in the same session - or maybe on two separate occasions.
I know nothing about drilling, but this seems a curious destination for a scope. Coming out underneath
the cam doesn't leave much of a scenic view, lol. EDIT: ...deleted... it occurred to me I'm teetering on
destructive entry discussion - one (of very few) no-no's here in this sub-forum. Just wanted to throw
the reminder out before I inadvertently start some of you talking. Was just making the observation,
-not looking for responses.
Besides, who's interested in drilling?! Shit, certainly not me! Haaaaa

At any rate, the lock and all its' pieces were in great shape. Some wear but nothing out of the ordinary.
I was more than confident to put it back into use (and it runs like a little tiny dream, lol). My efforts to
service the safe also turned out well. But I still have one lingering concern - an issue regarding the
bolt work. How it even became a problem and what the correct 'fix' is still eludes me. Rather than
attempting to explain it, I'll tryn' get some pics to post when I'm out that way again. I'd feel a lot
better if it was addressed. Not to mention, it's just one more thing I could learn from this safe.



YALE OC-5. Nearly always mounted RH.
Most will have the final opening rotation of Left.
IF the dial is original, CP will be found between 98-5

Group 2 ... 3 wheel ... mesh change .... friction fence

DIALING: RLR Left to stop @ 9
CONTACT POINT: approx. 3

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" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 7:49 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Backing my car up to this pole barn, I step out to this exciting scene.
All the makings for what I consider to be a hell-of-a good time.
Couldn't dream up a better Winter-Wonderland if I tried. lol

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The Mosler-Bahmann & Co. (Gustave Mosler, Fred Bahmann) operated for roughly three decades (1867-1898).
When Gustave died in 1874 his family broke free to start their own company - Mosler Safe & Lock Company.
Bahmann however, continued the business under the Mosler-Bahmann name until 1898. So at one time,
these 2 separate companies bearing the Mosler name were both listed in the Cincinnati Bus. Registry

If that isn't enough.... prior to all this was a company founded in 1859 by Charles Diebold and Fred Bahmann.
Yep, you guessed it, lol... the "Diebold-Bahmann & Company". Eventually Bahmann left and formed the new
company with Fred Mosler. Diebold continued business for many years undergoing several name changes.

Safe historians really have a mess to unravel. Over the span of many years, you basically have a handful
of major companies constantly consuming each other. Again and again. Acquisitions, mergers, etc. etc.
I myself will delve in only as far as my interest will carry me - which is about 1 hr. And by then I could
really give a shit who made it, lol, I just like to tryn' open the damn things. But there's some history.

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Initially I wasn't all too hopeful, as the new owner of this old safe thought that someone may
have forced the handle - it was no longer connected to anything inside. But once he sent
me some photos, I called back to give him some good news... and some bad news....

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He had not purchased a damaged safe. The free-spinning handle is in fact part of a rather unique design.
The handle will not engage the bolt work until the combination has been dialed and the lockbolt retracted.

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The bad news (mainly my problem, lol) was the lock. For someone like ME anyway - this lock is no joke.
A four wheel lock. Yale 062-1/2 geared indirect-drive (offset spindle). With the exception of a few fire
safes, this lock is most often found in jeweler's chests and banker's safes. I didn't express the
full extent of my doubts to him - but just enough so he wasn't expecting any miracles.

My reserved doubts though were accompanied by that all too familiar obsession and insane determination.
I was already mentally plotting to spend days if need be. I viewed this as a valuable opportunity. Not just
another notch on the belt - but a chance to really learn something. Take another step up on the ladder.

My previous manipulation of the OC-5 was a brutal introduction to the friction fence. But I learned a ton.
This lock was now offering me the chance to set foot on the playing field when it comes to 4-wheelin',
as well as experience the feel of an indirect-drive design. It was an opportunity I didn't take lightly.
Next mornin' I took my coffee to go and packed a breakfast, lunch, and dinner, lol. I was all in.

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So after all this, you can imagine my surprise when I quickly realized this lock seemed to be talking to me.
Some of the indications spanned for long distances and took me some time to refine a gate from them.
But within just a couple hours, we were treated to this beautiful 6" thick door. What I imagined might
take two days, took two hrs. Adding to my excitement - it turned out to be set to a true 4# combo.

Just goes to show - you absolutely never know what'll happen: if a lock will open, how difficult it will be,
or how long it will take. Other locks I thought would be a breeze have taken me 3X as long as this one.

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The handful of photos below help illustrate the interaction between the lock, handle, and bolt work.

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Image .. Image


What a treat it was to have a spin on this thing! Truly. When he and I both have some free time again,
I plan to stop by to service it. Although I was surprised to see the lock in such beautiful condition as is.
Nevertheless I'll give it the works before he puts it to use. While I'm at it I'll take some breakdown pics.

In case you didn't already notice, I had a hard time ending my lockporn photo-session with this one. lol



Yale 062-1/2

4 wheel ... mesh change .... indirect-drive ... spring-loaded roller fence

DIALING: RLRL Right to stop (86)
CONTACT AREA: approx. 91-0
HANDLE: Turns clockwise



Image


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" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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00247

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:18 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Great job on that Mosler! I cannot comprehend how you can get readings on a friction fence lock, much less on one with indirect drive. When I play around with my Mosler 5H's, it's, well, all Greek to me. Impressive.

Back to blocking out primer...
It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
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00247

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 8:28 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

On the two 5H locks on my double door, both are set to open with 2 numbers. All the wheels are set the same + the drive wheel number. Would this make manipulation easier or would it throw you for a while?

I may change the combinations but when I studied the wheels I see the center piece is held by a snap ring in the middle of the wheel assembly. Could you describe the process you use for pressing out the center. I didn't want to get to aggressive with it. It's just to hard to come up with parts, this after spending a year to find the correct friction fence bolt. And, pictures please.
It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 9:40 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:The General Fireproofing Co. operated from 1902 - 1989, and produced safes from 1912 - 1940. ... So now we're looking at around a 77-87 yr. old box.

Wow, that looks like new!

Oldfast wrote:Besides, who's interested in drilling?! Shit, certainly not me! Haaaaa

Na, drilling is booooring.

Martin Hewitt
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MHM

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Post Thu Feb 16, 2017 11:49 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Anyone who disputes that industrial design and art can be the same thing, has never seen that Mosler/Bahmann safe and the internals of its Yale lock.

That thing is stone cold, drop dead gorgeous.
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madsamurai

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 12:02 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Impressive as always, Oldfast... It always amazes me how a safe can be so crummy and beat looking on the outside, and still have such beautiful lockwork on the inside.
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Fri Feb 17, 2017 10:09 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:Image


I know that listener device, but what are those two pickups, as I don't recall seeing connectors in those?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:27 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:I know that listener device, but what are those two pickups, as I don't recall seeing connectors in those?

Those are the pickups that came with the setup when I purchased it.
So you're saying you've seen this amp before, but with different pickups?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4019

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 1:28 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Sorry for the delayed response... but I was scheduled to work on a 5-H within a
day or two :) Figured I might as well wait till then and take some photos for ya.

00247 wrote:On the two 5H locks on my double door, both are set to open with 2 numbers. All the wheels are set the same + the drive wheel number. Would this make manipulation easier or would it throw you for a while?

Keep in mind the drive wheel (drive cam) is not part of the combination. Both your locks are currently set to a single number combination... not 2. For example, the one I worked on today is set to a true 4# combo. AFTER I've dialed in the final (4th) number, I leave it turning left until I come to a solid stop at 14.... 14 is NOT part of the combination - it just happens to be where the dial stops when the lock bolt is fully retracted. Anyway, just clarification for if/when you're deciding on how many #'s to set your locks to.

I (and many others) nearly always start manipulations with an all wheels rotation. Moving all wheels together, I work my way around taking readings every 2 or 2.5 incs. ('readings' btw, are taken around the area you termed as "the drive wheel's number"). So, I would undoubtedly hit your magic # somewhere within my first rotation!

Naturally my suggestion would be to utilize all the wheels in your lock. However, there's plenty of 4-wheel locks out there that are set to 3 numbers. This still offers a moderate-high degree of security while at the same time giving you a little more convenience with less rotations. Another option I've seen is to use all four wheels, but use the same # for w1 & w4. This doesn't cut down on the rotations... but it takes a few less brain cells to remember. lol

00247 wrote:I may change the combinations but when I studied the wheels I see the center piece is held by a snap ring in the middle of the wheel assembly. Could you describe the process you use for pressing out the center. I didn't want to get to aggressive with it. It's just to hard to come up with parts, this after spending a year to find the correct friction fence bolt. And, pictures please.

Given the money, and even MORE SO the time & effort you have put into
that gorgeous thing... I can thoroughly appreciate your cautious approach!
You have plenty of time... you don't have plenty of parts. lol

If your wheels are drastically different, then post a picture and we can
re-evaluate what you're doin'. But I wouldn't imagine they are. So.....

Image

The retaining ring comes off easily. No sense in deforming it more than necessary though.
Spin it around until one of the ends lines up with that indentation on the wheel post....

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Use that bit of room for a tool to pry up one end. Then follow it around from there with your fingernail.

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The inner-hub and outer-ring seat together with meshing teeth.
Reorienting the 2 pieces sets a new # for the wheel. This one is currently set to 37.
In this photo, the inner-hub will be pressed up from underneath and come out towards me.

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The meshing/teeth on the two pieces is somewhat fine - so tryn' push the inner-hub out evenly to avoid binding.

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All this can usually be accomplished by hand, using light-moderate force. I've had some that practically fall right out when I
turn the wheel over. Others will put up quite a fight. We'll have to wait and see just how much resistance your wheels offer.

Flip the wheel over - curl your fingertips around the outer edge of the wheel to hold it - press on inner-hub with your thumbs.
Again, we tryn' keep things even, so turn the wheel slightly after each press. Turn, press, turn press. Work your way around.

Sounds like you might not mess around with these for a while, but when you do, let us know how it goes. If some
are so tight you're unable to work 'em lose, we can try some other things. But don't be afraid to use some force.

GOLDEN RULE: Test your work multiple, multiple times with the door OPEN.
You can never 2nd guess yourself enough before that final closing/locking.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
<<

00247

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Location: Wisconsin

Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 2:54 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Thank you for the advise, Oldfast.

The locks for the double door are stashed in their padded box and easily accessible so I went down to the shop to give it try. I don't know how the inner piece could ever almost fall out. I tapped on all four with the plastic handle of a screwdriver while holding the assembly in my hand to ease the shock and none would budge. I concentrated on one and increased the force and could see some slight movement but it would not come out.

I had mentioned a snap ring (brass) between the two pieces of the wheel assembly. Looking under my bench magnifier I could see and wiggle that snap ring in the open space of the center piece. I gave a more forceful tap and the center popped right out. I believe the inner piece could be pushed out either direction. Here is a picture of the joint in the snap ring.

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I thought maybe yours did not have the snap ring but upon looking again,it does. Perhaps tolerances determine how much force is required. On the next one I am going to try some foreplay and lube first. We all know that is worth the effort. :D I did find a small amount of green corrosion in the teeth in one area. I'm sure that didn't help. It doesn't show well in this picture but it is green there on the bottom.

Image

Barring a distraction, the double door gets painted tomorrow. Let's hope Murphy's law takes Sundays off.
It is time... stand up for a constitutional America. Without it, we have shed blood in vain.
<<

Jaakko Fagerlund

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Location: Finland

Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 7:19 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast wrote:
Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:I know that listener device, but what are those two pickups, as I don't recall seeing connectors in those?

Those are the pickups that came with the setup when I purchased it.
So you're saying you've seen this amp before, but with different pickups?

Yeah, eBay gives results for "Radio shack stereo listener" and none of them show those pickups nor any way to attach such things, just looks like two mics in the corners. In yours it looks like someone has added connectors to it, but can't say for sure based on one photo.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4019

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Feb 19, 2017 4:58 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Jaakko...
Purchased from Lockmasters. It's said to be designed by (or at least based off from) H.C Miller's design.
For $150, I think it's a real nice setup. Definitely an upgrade from the EZ Amp ($100) I was using before.

If you have an account with them & can view all their safe-related products though... it's not currently listed.
I was told they're in the middle of transitioning to a different manufacturer for these. No more Radio-Shack.

00247....
Great to see everything went fine with the wheels.
And yeah, lol I HOPE 'Murphy' stays home today!
Can't wait to see the end product!!!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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