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Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:07 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

00247 wrote:
Oldfast wrote: Would've been posted by now, but accidentally deleted it

Doesn't that just piss you off? I have had it happen to me a number of times. Once in a while the site asks me to sign in again when I want to preview and there it all goes... down the shitter.

Tell me! Hasn't happened to me in a looong time. I save all my drafts TWICE, and I save them constantly while writing. But this was one of those cases where I was aggressively cleaning out my drafts and thought it was an entirely different article that I'd already posted. Oops. Anyway, you know what it is too... it's the homework you gave me! Hahaaa! Kinda like telling the teacher the dog ate my homework. lol

00247 wrote:Tell you what Oldfast, chip that safe out of the concrete and get it all off the wheels, float it across the lake, and I'll redo it for you. Pretty safe offer on my part... lol

Well I feel ashamed, lol.... you're obviously willing to do more work than I am. I sure as hell ain't diggin' that thing out! :rofl:
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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L4R3L2

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Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 6:23 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Johnny3baseball wrote:Oldfast,
I have really enjoyed reading through your chronicles and following along with all of your successful safe openings! I am a fairly new safe hobbyist and bought a Victor Safe with what I believe is a Yale OC-9 or possible OC-5 combination lock about 6 months ago. In one of your post from page 9 of your chronicles you talk about:
Locating the 3rd number (drive wheel gate) was simple enough. Turning both the
handle and dial, the tailpiece distinctly dropped into the gate, seizing the dial.
Oscillation brings me to tap either side of this gate at 57 & 61. Approximately
a 4 inc wide gate, the center of which we'll figure to be 59. The edges of this
gate (57 & 61) will serve as left & right contact points for the manipulation.
John


John, it should be noted that the lock described in Mike's post you quoted was a direct entry type lock. I believe your safe is a Victor 500, which should have a Yale OC5 or OC6 friction fence lock. How certain are you that you are feeling two contact points?
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Johnny3baseball

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Post Mon Dec 03, 2018 8:35 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

John, it should be noted that the lock described in Mike's post you quoted was a direct entry type lock. I believe your safe is a Victor 500, which should have a Yale OC5 or OC6 friction fence lock. How certain are you that you are feeling two contact points?[/quote]

L4R3L2,
Over the last 6 months I have felt like around 98 & 3 are the two contact points and that is what I have been using while graphing. There has always been less friction and what seems to be a change in movement from 53-57 which I have always assumed was the wheel notch. Its been difficult because I am not 100% sure what yale lock I actually have in my safe (the few experts that I have talked to on these forums seem to think that it is a Yale OC-9) but no one seems to have any information on Yale OC-9 locks and I have been striking out trying to find information about them on the internet. Another thing that makes it difficult is that I don't have the best equipment and am only using a regular old stethoscope when trying to graph points.
John
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jharveee

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 2:18 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Sounds like the Yale HE. Kind of a hybrid. Three wheel direct entry fence with a drive cam that produces two contact points when you put pressure on the handle. The wheel binds when you put pressure on handle between 93 - 3. Confused the heck out of me.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 4:07 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

jharveee wrote:Sounds like the Yale HE. Kind of a hybrid. Three wheel direct entry fence with a drive cam that produces two contact points when you put pressure on the handle. The wheel binds when you put pressure on handle between 93 - 3. Confused the heck out of me.

You may be onto something here! (Though I thought these were mainly used in HHM's)

Johnny3baseball wrote:Over the last 6 months I have felt like around 98 & 3 are the two contact points and that is what I have been using while graphing. There has always been less friction and what seems to be a change in movement from 53-57 which I have always assumed was the wheel notch.

98-3... So to be clear, this is when you have all 3 wheels elsewhere, and bring ONLY the drive cam into this area... apply handle pressure, and you get these distinct contact points at 98 & 3?

53-37... What do you mean "less friction" and "change in movement"? Do you mean a change in your readings? What wheel(s) are being brought through here. Are you applying handle pressure the whole time, or just in what you think is the contact area? You really need to get tediously descriptive... otherwise we could be chasing ghosts for a while here.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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jharveee

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 7:36 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

[/quote]You may be onto something here! (Though I thought these were mainly used in HHM's)[/quote]

This is what I've read as well.

Perhaps, not the HE model. A lock similar in design. Just going off the description given by Johnny3B.
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Johnny3baseball

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 8:38 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast,
Thanks for your response. I tried to answer your questions as best as I could down below. Please let me know if it still doesn't make sense. Thanks!

So to be clear, this is when you have all 3 wheels elsewhere, and bring ONLY the drive cam into this area... apply handle pressure, and you get these distinct contact points at 98 & 3?

This is when I am attempting to graph the contact points with no handle pressure involved (to be honest I haven't really tried applying handle pressure because I am not sure if turning the handle towards the dial or away from the dial would create more pressure). I have been turning the wheel several times to the right and then parking the wheels at 0, 2.5, 5, 7.5 and so on. I get a slight "tick" in the area of 97-98 and then another around 3 when turning back to the left. Sometime it is easier to hear than other times. I will often do each number multiple times and have even used a hair drier to try heating the dial and internals of the lock to see if that helps.

53-57... What do you mean "less friction" and "change in movement"? Do you mean a change in your readings? What wheel(s) are being brought through here. Are you applying handle pressure the whole time, or just in what you think is the contact area? You really need to get tediously descriptive... otherwise we could be chasing ghosts for a while here.

When turning the dial 4R-3L-2R-L to stop while trying different combinations especially when turning the dial to the right, for lack of a better word I lose friction on the dial at 57 and it picks back up at 53. Its hard to explain but I will be turning the dial at a steady pace and when I get to about 57 the pace picks up and the dial "jumps" to 53 and the pace slows back down and the friction picks up again. Not sure what if anything is means but it is very noticeable.

Thanks again for your guidance. I feel bad having this conversation on your great chronicles page. Please let me know if I should start a new thread so that I am not cluttering your great page. Thanks,
John
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 9:33 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Could we please move this discussion not related to Oldfast to a different thread?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Tue Dec 04, 2018 11:44 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Hmmm. The plot thickens, lol. It's certainly interesting. And it could be that we're simply not asking the right questions with the right words. Given your description at the beginning... I thought jharveee was really onto something with an HE lock design. But now, you say you're feeling all this without turning the handle. At any rate, it seems you've located your contact points. Does one of them seem to give you more fluctuations than the other?

And given what you're feeling, it just doesn't seem like it could be a friction fence lock. But I'll ask again...

Oldfast wrote:These locks will have a fairly distinct gear sound & feel to them.
As you turn the dial, do you notice the 'tick, tick, tick, tick'?
You shouldn't even have to put your ear against the safe to
hear this... but you could even do that if you need to.
So what do you make of this?




Johnny3baseball wrote:Thanks again for your guidance. I feel bad having this conversation on your great chronicles page. Please let me know if I should start a new thread so that I am not cluttering your great page. Thanks,
John

MartinHewitt wrote:Could we please move this discussion not related to Oldfast to a different thread?

I don't neccessarily mind the discussion here... but I agree,
this definitely deserves its' own thread, entitled Victor Safe.
This helps to make future searches more productive.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 3:16 pm

Location: Michigan

Post Sat Dec 08, 2018 4:27 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

:gosplit:
btw, that doesn't mean you CANNOT post here, lol.
Go ahead if you need to! It'll all work out in the end.

No worries.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Location: Michigan

Post Sun Dec 09, 2018 11:40 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

A quick note: John messaged me last night.
He managed to open the safe and had photos.
It's an OC5. Anyway, just thought you should know.
We may see more on this when he finds time to post.

p.s. part of his experience reminded me of something
that I should've included in our 'friction-fence' thread.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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L4R3L2

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Post Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:10 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Well, good for him! Opened by his manipulation? I'm wondering what the second "contact point" was.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Dec 10, 2018 2:25 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I'm assuming so, but he didn't elaborate much yet. Just that's it's open + pictures.
The other area (98-3 that he mentioned) does jibe with the drop-in for an OC5.
Could he have been hearing the fence drop in (98) and then the contact point @3?

Hard to tell. Guess we'll have to wait for more details.
But interesting to know what lock it was. I'm glad he PM'd.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Tue Dec 11, 2018 3:51 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

.

Herring-Hall-Marvin


Image

Wasn't scheduled to do this one, but was in the area and thought
I'd take a look. The business was closing really soon. A quick way
to piss off a bunch of people is to keep them late on a Friday. lol

The idea was to just see what I'd be working with. But every once
in a great while the sun, the moon, the stars, and the gates align.


Image

I immediately caught a gate for w3 through sound/feel.
This one was not subtle either. I could actually hear the
fence drop into the gate, then a catch/snag 3 incs later.

I parked wheels 1&3 on it and ran w2. Found a nice clear
gate within 40 numbers into the search. And lastly, w1...

And here comes my second lucky break! The gate for w1
was EXACTLY where I decided to START my search. Open


Sorry about the lack of pictures & info on this one guys. I thought for sure I'd be back.
This was just before Christmas last year. They were interested in having me service it
and said they'd get a hold of me after the holidays. Unfortunately, they never called.



At any rate, this still serves as yet another example of staying
attentive for those early clues some worn locks will give you!

No doubt a Sargent & Greenleaf lock (probably an older model).
Contact area: 4-15. Pickup differences were roughly 1.5, 2.5, 3.5


.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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