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Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:56 pm
by MartinHewitt
Yes it has and I know one professional who thinks so too. With my last 3-hour-safe two numbers had a distance of only 4.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:29 pm
by Oldfast
MartinHewitt wrote:Oldfast, but I do have a question for you: Are combinations where two neighboring wheels have gates very close together more difficult to manipulate than other combinations?
Oldfast wrote:For me it can, yeah. That's caught me on a few occasions.
Cost me lots of time. You had trouble with this at times too?
MartinHewitt wrote:Yes it has and I know one professional who thinks so too. With my last 3-hour-safe two numbers had a distance of only 4.

Yep. Good point. And I think many of us just assume that chosen numbers will likely be at least 5 or even 10 numbers away from the last. But we usually stop making this assumption after being bitten a few times, lol. For me, I don't mind taking a few extra readings as I work away from the known gate. ie. I've parked the wheel on found gate and I'm gonna begin exploring the next wheel(s). I'll often take a readings on every inc until I'm 3 or 4 incs away from the gate. Then I'll revert to the normal 2 or 2.5. This only equates to a couple extra readings, versus not spotting a gate close to the last... which is gonna cost ya a lot more time.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:01 pm
by Oldfast
.

.


Image

Gross-Feibel is a name I don't see often, and there doesn't seem to be a great
amount of info on this company; when they operated & what all they made.
If you know anything, or are better at digging up history, I'd love to hear it.

Image

Image

A lost cause? lol... yeah, I'd say so. Certainly not destined to be used again.
I'm assuming within the cement are wheels this would normally set on. At some
later date, unable to move it, a wall was built around it, encasing the back third.

The safe now resides in... get this, lol... a walk-in freezer. The hose you spot in
the photo runs to a unit above the safe that probably produced condensation -
giving the safe below a constant supply of moisture. Hence, this rust-bucket.

Image

The owner of this business hoped to sell the building in the near future,
but was curious as to what might be in the safe. He sprayed the hinges
and handle for me several times over the next week prior to my arrival.
Unfortunately this didn't help much, as the handle was still rusted solid.

Initially, I wasn't too concerned with the handle, figuring I had an OC5.
But once I got my hand on the dial I realized it wasn't. So my attention
went back to the handle (involving Kroil and a hammer). After beating
the shit out of it for some time, I had made progress. Far from what I
would call 'freed-up', it was still difficult to turn... but it was moving.

With some handle movement established it became apparent that I had
a straight-tailpiece lock (Direct-Entry lock). I had bearings on the drive
wheel's gate and was off and runnin'. Rather than rehash old material,
take a look HERE if you're curious about how this manipulation went.

Image

A note on my stupidity, lol: Shortly into the spin I was still bitchin' about the
handle when the owner offered me a pair of vice-grips. Geez. As if I didn't
know that! lol. But sometimes I can get so focused I'll get tunnel vision.

I might even owe my success on this one to that little ol' pair of vice-grips.
It allowed me to turn the handle with less effort, but more importantly,
I was able to apply a more consistent turning force for each reading.

Safecracking is a lonely one-man sport; it's one of the things I LOVE about it.
But don't ever underestimate an onlookers ability, from their point of view,
to kindly state the stupidly obvious for you, lol. Sometimes they can help.
...SOMEtimes :)


Image



Image



Dialing for dollars (w1 in this case): While advancing w1 the handle let loose,
but could feel something was still impeding its' movement. I debated whether
or not to force the handle the rest of the way or continue working the wheel.
But given the safes condition, who really cares? We're simply looking for open.

Below you see: W1's gate was not aligned, but as it drew near,
the fence slid along side it and simply bent it out of the way.

Image


I've been manipulating more DE locks without measuring handle movement
and will continue to see just how often, and with which locks this approach
will suffice. It's nice to avoid the setup time required for a laser, pointer, or
dial indicator, etc. (whatever you use). Not to mention, this handle being in
such rough condition may have posed problems for this type of approach.


:) Before you ask....
No, the freezer was not in operation. lol
And, no... there was nothing in the safe.

.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 7:37 pm
by MartinHewitt
Advanced manipulation techniques! Great!

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Thu Nov 29, 2018 9:07 pm
by MHM
As I'm sure I've said before Oldfast, this is by far the best thread on any lock picking forum - including the one I moderate.

Thanks so much for continuing to update it.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Fri Nov 30, 2018 3:58 am
by Oldfast
Thanks for always taking a look Martin! :)

Michael, truly appreciate the kind words.
Helps validate my efforts knowing others
enjoy at least some of what I've shared.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 4:04 pm
by Johnny3baseball
Oldfast,
I have really enjoyed reading through your chronicles and following along with all of your successful safe openings! I am a fairly new safe hobbyist and bought a Victor Safe with what I believe is a Yale OC-9 or possible OC-5 combination lock about 6 months ago. In one of your post from page 9 of your chronicles you talk about:
Locating the 3rd number (drive wheel gate) was simple enough. Turning both the
handle and dial, the tailpiece distinctly dropped into the gate, seizing the dial.
Oscillation brings me to tap either side of this gate at 57 & 61. Approximately
a 4 inc wide gate, the center of which we'll figure to be 59. The edges of this
gate (57 & 61) will serve as left & right contact points for the manipulation.

I am finding a similar situation on my lock. It will come to a dead stop at 51 when turning back to the right after going to many different numbers right, then left to 3 and back to the right stopping at 51. Oscillation back and forth from 51 & 55 it will click at both numbers. Once I go back past 55 I lose the dead stop at 51. With the OC-9 or OC-5 lock is this possibly the same situation you are talking about meaning that 53 would be the last number? Thanks for any information you may have!
John

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:18 pm
by Oldfast
Welcome to the forum John. I'm Mike.

If possible, photos of your safe, the dial, & handle would be helpful here.
Handle pressure plays a part when manipulating straight-tailpiece (aka DE
Direct-Entry) type locks... like the Schwab you're referring to on page 9.

Most Victor safes were fitted with an L-1 or L-2 Yale-made lock.
These locks used gravity-driven levers where handle pressure
would have no bearing on the manipulation. Look HERE

And, though I haven't seen one myself, Victor did apparently use Yale's OC-9 lock.
Most people will say handle pressure has no bearing on friction-fence locks. This
is for the most part true, but not entirely. Depending on the the handle cam/bolt
work configuration, handle pressure can to some extent create dial binding.

However, a number of things in your description really doesn't jibe with a
friction-fence type lock, or an L1/L2 for that matter. Again, photos would
be tremendously helpful. Maybe if we all see it we can be of some help.

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Sun Dec 02, 2018 5:41 pm
by MartinHewitt
I love this L2. The lever is IMHO very stylish!

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:07 am
by Johnny3baseball
[quote="Oldfast"]Welcome to the forum John. I'm Mike.

If possible, photos of your safe, the dial, & handle would be helpful here.
Handle pressure plays a part when manipulating straight-tailpiece (aka DE
Direct-Entry) type locks... like the Schwab you're referring to on page 9.

Most Victor safes were fitted with an L-1 or L-2 Yale-made lock.
These locks used gravity-driven levers where handle pressure
would have no bearing on the manipulation. Look HERE

And, though I haven't seen one myself, Victor did apparently use Yale's OC-9 lock.
Most people will say handle pressure has no bearing on friction-fence locks. This
is for the most part true, but not entirely. Depending on the the handle cam/bolt
work configuration, handle pressure can to some extent create dial binding.

Mike,
Thanks, and again I love your chronicles. I will attach a couple picture to the end of this post. Please let me know if you don't get them or if you want more pictures. I do believe it is an OC-9. I am in Upstate NY and depending on where you are in Mass, I am probably only a couple hours from you or possibly a little less (if you ever decide to you want to play around with an OC-9) if it is in fact one. I have been on and off with this safe for 6 months with a ton of hours invested in graphing, manipulation, and research. I have always loved a challenge!
John
https://imgur.com/a/fRnbDOa

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:10 am
by Johnny3baseball
Oh sorry, I thought you were in Massachusetts. I see that you are in Michigan, that's a little longer trip.
John

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 2:48 am
by Oldfast
MartinHewitt wrote:I love this L2. The lever is IMHO very stylish!

Believe it or not, that is the only Victor I've run into during
my winter travels... but I look forward to seeing more.


John...
We'll have to see what others think, but I agree - it sure looks like the
dial of a friction-fence lock. But, as my latest post illustrates, dials can
be deceiving once in awhile.

These locks will have a fairly distinct gear sound & feel to them.
As you turn the dial, do you notice the 'tick, tick, tick, tick'?
You shouldn't even have to put your ear against the safe to
hear this... but you could even do that if you need to.

btw; I don't know what the difference is between OC5 & OC9. Anyone???

Johnny3baseball wrote:....I have been on and off with this safe for 6 months with a ton of hours invested in graphing, manipulation, and research.

Good for you! That's dedication! Doin' your homework. I call it 'Paying your Dues'.
I once spent 3 yrs on a lock, lol... so don't feel bad. So have you worked with any
other locks other than this one?

Anyway, tryn' absolutely verify the lock you have. If it is an OC9 or OC5...
I'm currently doing a bit of writing on these in response to another thread.
Would've been posted by now, but accidentally deleted it :/
When I post it I'll certainly shoot you a link. Maybe it'll help

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:17 am
by Johnny3baseball
Oldfast wrote:
MartinHewitt wrote:I love this L2. The lever is IMHO very stylish!

Believe it or not, that is the only Victor I've run into during
my winter travels... but I look forward to seeing more.


John...
We'll have to see what others think, but I agree - it sure looks like the
dial of a friction-fence lock. But, as my latest post illustrates, dials can
be deceiving once in awhile.

These locks will have a fairly distinct gear sound & feel to them.
As you turn the dial, do you notice the 'tick, tick, tick, tick'?
You shouldn't even have to put your ear against the safe to
hear this... but you could even do that if you need to.

btw; I don't know what the difference is between OC5 & OC9. Anyone???

Johnny3baseball wrote:....I have been on and off with this safe for 6 months with a ton of hours invested in graphing, manipulation, and research.

Good for you! That's dedication! Doin' your homework. I call it 'Paying your Dues'.
I once spent 3 yrs on a lock, lol... so don't feel bad. So have you worked with any
other locks other than this one?

Anyway, tryn' absolutely verify the lock you have. If it is an OC9 or OC5...
I'm currently doing a bit of writing on these in response to another thread.
Would've been posted by now, but accidentally deleted it :/
When I post it I'll certainly shoot you a link. Maybe it'll help


Mike,
Nope, this is my first lock. From what I have read and heard from other more experienced people like yourself its not the easiest to start with but if I ever get it manipulated I have a feeling it won't be my last! I had a slight break through this past week when the original owner (after 6 months) recalled that one of the numbers is 11. Hopefully his recollection is right! That's why I was hoping the dead stop that you talked about in your chronicles might pertain to my lock. I figured that if 53 was the last number and 11 is indeed a number in the sequence then I am only a max of 200 tries away from getting the safe open. From day 1 there has always been a change of "feel" from 52-57 range and I have always focused on 55 and then 51 because thats where the dead stop is. I have two young boys age 4 and 8 and everytime I go downstairs to work on the safe they ask me the next morning if I got it open. One of these days I look forward to telling them yes!
John

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 3:20 am
by 00247
Oldfast wrote: Would've been posted by now, but accidentally deleted it


Doesn't that just piss you off? I have had it happen to me a number of times. Once in a while the site asks me to sign in again when I want to preview and there it all goes... down the shitter.

Tell you what Oldfast, chip that safe out of the concrete and get it all off the wheels, float it across the lake, and I'll redo it for you. Pretty safe offer on my part... lol

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

PostPosted: Mon Dec 03, 2018 4:06 am
by Oldfast
Johnny3baseball wrote:....Nope, this is my first lock. From what I have read and heard from other more experienced people like yourself its not the easiest to start with but if I ever get it manipulated I have a feeling it won't be my last!....

True, it's certainly not the recommended startup lock... but there's plenty
of folks around here that didn't really follow a 'normal' learning curve. lol
And some of the locks they're able to pick are just insane.

Keep at it. And keep us up to date. Plenty of folks here willing to tryn'
help out if we can. I'll be honest... given what you've said so far, your
lock is not entirely making sense to me just yet. A further descriptive
feel (if and when you feel the need) might bring about more advice.