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Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

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mdc5150

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Post Sun Sep 30, 2018 2:19 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Mike, how difficult was this to manipulate?

Solid contact readings? Did it manipulate like a 6730 or did it take a special technique?
Inquiring minds want to know!
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jharveee

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Post Sun Sep 30, 2018 4:32 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

"Now, That's a Safe"!
What information did you have, if any, going into this manipulation? Do you try to research for dialing sequences, drop in areas? Thanks for putting your back into this one. Flipper fence, never have seen one. Please tell us, there was more inside than stale air. Love your photos.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sun Sep 30, 2018 6:26 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

jharveee wrote:....Flipper fence, never have seen one.

No doubt you will eventually. Mosler made a number of locks using this "flipper fence".
The B101, 103, 107, S201, etc... just to name a few. There's plenty of 'em still around.

mdc5150 wrote:Mike, how difficult was this to manipulate?

Solid contact readings? Did it manipulate like a 6730 or did it take a special technique?
Inquiring minds want to know!

Nothing special. Standard manipulation practices apply here.

IMO, these locks are absolutely worth a spin to see what you might receive.
And that's not just me - I've spotted multiple SAVTA Bulletins where, under
"Opening Options:", they list manipulation as a "Good option" or "Best bet"
(opposed to simply saying "Possible" or "Not Recommended").

CP's are often (but not always) solid and obvious. The RCP will normally
feed you the most information and will be found somewhere around 0-5.

Fluctuations can be medium to moderate... even large at times. As you
can see in the dial photos though, the opening index and inc lines don't
leave you a lot of room. If you think it would help you, set up a wire or
pointer of sorts to give you a finer line for noticing the fluctuations.

Matt, this particular lock admittedly sent me down some rabbit holes in
the way of multiple gate sigs on some of the wheels. Upon closer inspection
I was able to eliminate a couple of them considering they didn't drop back
to baseline. Of what remained, I dialed out the possibles for an opening.

That being said(!) this one episode is not indicative of what I've usually
experienced with these locks. Not that I've dealt with a ton of them by
any means, but I do have several of them here at home that tend to be
a much more straightforward experience. All-in-all, this safe is more
impressive than its' lock. The bark is more intimidating than the bite?

Speaking of the safe: Would it be quite a chore to drill something like this?
(without getting into too much detail of course... destructive entry and all)


jharveee wrote:What information did you have, if any, going into this manipulation? Do you try to research for dialing sequences, drop in areas?

Oh, for sure. I always tryn' identify exactly what I'll be dealing with. In this case, there was nearly a handful of possible locks that could be with that dial. Knowing I'd be dealing with one of them was the best I could do. Research is always good, but has sometimes got me into trouble as I walk in thinking I know something. It's best to remember I really don't know anything for sure until I get my hand on the dial.

jharveee wrote:Please tell us, there was more inside than stale air.

Haha! I wish there was some fantastic story to tell here... but nope. Usually I step out for it bit while it's opened. Due to the circumstances surrounding this one though, it was one of those rare occasions I thought it best to stick around for it. So I can tell ya first hand what stale air smells like; not much lol

jharveee wrote:Love your photos.

Thank you!! Each & every one takes a shit-load of time.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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mdc5150

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Post Sun Sep 30, 2018 9:45 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Speaking of the safe: Would it be quite a chore to drill something like this?
(without getting into too much detail of course... destructive entry and all)


Mike, I have not drilled a Mosler round door like this, but Moslers in general are pretty tough. You would be surprised how well they made the hard plate on some of the older safes. That being said if the conditions were right I would not go through the door on this one.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:28 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Thanks for that Matt! As you know, I dunno much at all about drilling,
so it's interesting for me to hear how some of these safes might hold
up to some experienced hole-punchers.

Another thing I forgot to mention, and didn't notice right away....
You can see the change key hole on w3 (possibly the others too)
have been covered?! It appears a disc has been soldered over it.

Anyone know why or what purpose this would serve? Or even a guess?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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mercurial

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Post Tue Oct 02, 2018 3:40 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

It would make any attempt to open the safe by scoping the change key hole less fruitful! (I’m deliberately being a bit vague, so as not to openly disclose this technique, but people who know about safes should get it...PM me if you don’t understand).
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:06 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Thanks Mark. That's really about the only thing I could think of too. Though you'd think covering w1, rather than 3, would suffice. But who knows, maybe all three wheels were sealed like this. I dunno. As I mentioned, I didn't even take notice of this till later. And I didn't service or disassemble this one at all. Actually, it was all I could do to force myself to get some photos before leaving. lol

Maybe the wheels were sketchy and they feared unlocking the wheels could create a lockout. Or, maybe for some reason they didn't want the combo to ever be changed from what it was. Who knows. It's very curious. Certainly not something you see often I wouldn't imagine.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:13 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I'll try also an explanation:

From change key hole to dial there is W1, W2, W3, drive cam. All four are the same size due to this flipper fence. When the change key is stuck into the change key hole it goes through W1, then W2, then W3 and then it should stop, because then there is the drive cam and this must still be able to rotate. To prevent people sticking the change key into the drive cam they might have soldered a sheet onto the back (when looking from the change key hole) of the change mechanism in W3.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Wed Oct 03, 2018 12:37 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Now that's an interesting thought Martin! Maybe the best one yet.

Of course, when you think of how a change key normally works,
having a lock setup like this one then raises more questions yet.

At any rate, unless I'm missing something, this seems a very
plausible explanation as to why that disc is there. It make sense.

Thanks for a having a good look at it Martin.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Chuck999

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Post Fri Oct 05, 2018 3:03 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

I have always wanted to try my hand at safe cracking. I just think it's fascinating..
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sun Nov 04, 2018 9:25 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast, I have seen in your first Chronicles, that you have posted there questions. Do you still have some open questions worth discussing?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:45 am

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

.

Martin, very kind of you to look through the original chronicles and notice that.
Extremely exciting & frustrating times. Makes me giddy just thinkin' back on it!

Indeed much learning AND many questions took place in those first few years.
There were plenty of helpful folks along the way, no doubt... but to be sure,
there were also plenty of questions posed that went unanswered. Yes.

I'm sure there's some that I never did get to the bottom of - I'll have to look.
On the other hand, as you know, many of the answers we seek are simply
revealed slowly over time as we continue spinning day in and day out.

Without even looking thru that original thread, I can tell ya right now, one of my
biggest hurdles was with LaGard. You can see that thread riddled with a variety
tactics, approaches, and theories that I tried over the years - none of which ever
really materialized. Today however, I'm VERY familiar with LaGards. I've actually
been putting together a rather lengthy article on this over the last couple years.

Funny you've made mention about some of these unanswered questions actually -
as just this summer I was thinking a 3rd thread might be in order. "SpiNNook" (lol)
would contain articles, some of which would more directly address questions like
these that I posed early on. I have tons still to learn, but lets face it... some of
the observations & questions I initially had, not fully understanding them, have
now become refined, streamlined techniques. And of the ones that I feel I'm
truly proficient with, I could now approach with a much more definitive style
of writing. I dunno... we'll see. It's somethin' I've been thinking about for a bit.
(Obviously I've thought enough about it to come up with a title anyway. lol)
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2018 3:11 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Great, that there are no questions left, which bother! :)
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Nov 05, 2018 8:24 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

Oldfast, but I do have a question for you: Are combinations where two neighboring wheels have gates very close together more difficult to manipulate than other combinations?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:37 pm

Re: Safe Chronicles, Part II - Beyond the Lockroom

For me it can, yeah. That's caught me on a few occasions.
Cost me lots of time. You had trouble with this at times too?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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