1st Manipulation Ward 9007 safe on hold in learning curve

[jharveee]

For sure listen to Oldfast.
He and a long list of other members here got me spinning.
Took me about 6 months to get my first true "Open".
And it was on a Sargent and Greenleaf 6730 mounted on a piece of wood, not on a actual safe.
Still I think getting a practice lock or even a cut-away would help. Sometimes I use my cut-away next to a lock I'm working on.
That way I can see what wheel(s) is parked and what wheel(s) is being mapped.
Seems like a harder way to learn manipulation: not being able to peek at whats going on inside the lock.
It will make it that more satisfying when you get it open.

[MartinHewitt]

A question regarding the last graph set. From my understanding of "The Books" the aim is to get the wheel locations, where the drop area is narrowed as there the lever is lower and hence there are the gates. But from these graphs it looks to me you are most interested in the locations where the drop area is widest. Do I misread these graphs? Did I misunderstand something?

Martin Hewitt

[Fritz the Cat]

I'm open o any ideas on how to avoid the peaks . Iread that the LaGard 3330 has elliptical / oval shape wheels making manipulation that much more harder since you have to keeptrack of hi mand low spots . I get the feeling that this locks unusualpeaks make it more difficult to work with . Thusmy interest in moving the wheels 90 degrees to thepeak to see if some thing shows up .

[Fritz the Cat]

A question regarding the last graph set. From my understanding of "The Books" the aim is to get the wheel locations, where the drop area is narrowed as there the lever is lower and hence there are the gates. But from these graphs it looks to me you are most interested in the locations where the drop area is widest. Do I misread these graphs? Did I misunderstand something?

Martin Hewitt

The latest batch of graphs were doneasin the Guide toManipulation . The apparent gates in the book face inwards . The graph numbers at the top with the contact point approximate at the top are in ascending order like in the book . SounlessI'mstill misreading theinstructions I should have it right if not accurate .

[MartinHewitt]

From theoretical point of view ... as I have only read all the manipulation books I could get hold of, but never have manipulated a lock ...

Is it clear what type of lock it is? Does it have fly wheels? What is the way of changing the number?

You do get good an reliable signals around 18 and 60-65, but the point in the wrong direction. As they are very nice I could imagine that it is just an error in the orientation of your graph. Make future graphs like the last ones where left column is 96 to 0 and right column is 8 to 12. Make sure that the crosses are at the right vertical line. As the signals seem to be reliable I believe you are doing well on feeling the contact points.

As you have reliable signals around 18 and 60-65 I would determine the drop area at:

08 / 18 / 18
18 / 08 / 18
18 / 18 / 08

28 / 18 / 18
18 / 28 / 18
18 / 18 / 28

and

53 / 63 / 63
63 / 53 / 63
63 / 63 / 53

73 / 63 / 63
63 / 73 / 63
63 / 63 / 73

Is there on each block of three combinations one where the drop area is especially large? (The size is the distance of the left column to the right column, e.g. 97.5 on the left and 9 on the right have a distance of 2.5 (100-97.5) plus 9 = 11.5.) If e.g. 08/18/18 has a larger drop area than 18/08/18 and 18/18/08 then the gate at 18 is probably at the first position. Because if it is at the first position then the fence can't drop a bit into it and then the contact points are further away.

So don't go away and continue trying, because I want to know how it looks inside!

Martin Hewitt

[Fritz the Cat]

From theoretical point of view ... as I have only read all the manipulation books I could get hold of, but never have manipulated a lock ...

Is it clear what type of lock it is? Does it have fly wheels? What is the way of changing the number?

You do get good an reliable signals around 18 and 60-65, but the point in the wrong direction. As they are very nice I could imagine that it is just an error in the orientation of your graph. Make future graphs like the last ones where left column is 96 to 0 and right column is 8 to 12. Make sure that the crosses are at the right vertical line. As the signals seem to be reliable I believe you are doing well on feeling the contact points.

As you have reliable signals around 18 and 60-65 I would determine the drop area at:

08 / 18 / 18
18 / 08 / 18
18 / 18 / 08

28 / 18 / 18
18 / 28 / 18
18 / 18 / 28

and

53 / 63 / 63
63 / 53 / 63
63 / 63 / 53

73 / 63 / 63
63 / 73 / 63
63 / 63 / 73

Is there on each block of three combinations one where the drop area is especially large? (The size is the distance of the left column to the right column, e.g. 97.5 on the left and 9 on the right have a distance of 2.5 (100-97.5) plus 9 = 11.5.) If e.g. 08/18/18 has a larger drop area than 18/08/18 and 18/18/08 then the gate at 18 is probably at the first position. Because if it is at the first position then the fence can't drop a bit into it and then the contact points are further away.

So don't go away and continue trying, because I want to know how it looks inside!

Martin Hewitt

I saw a lock in a modelvery close to theone I have ,it was a Wards 9000 , mine is a 9007 .

It has a removable wheel pack thats attached to the cover . So when you remove the cover the wheelpack comes out with .
It has plastic wheels . The combination can be changed "mesh " style . ie the center comes out and you reinsert
I'm interested in your combinations . Are they all R - L - R or L - R - L ??

If I got that I'lltry them out . I'llm try r l r for stars and we will see

[Fritz the Cat]

From theoretical point of view ... as I have only read all the manipulation books I could get hold of, but never have manipulated a lock ...

Is it clear what type of lock it is? Does it have fly wheels? What is the way of changing the number?

You do get good an reliable signals around 18 and 60-65, but the point in the wrong direction. As they are very nice I could imagine that it is just an error in the orientation of your graph. Make future graphs like the last ones where left column is 96 to 0 and right column is 8 to 12. Make sure that the crosses are at the right vertical line. As the signals seem to be reliable I believe you are doing well on feeling the contact points.

As you have reliable signals around 18 and 60-65 I would determine the drop area at:

08 / 18 / 18
18 / 08 / 18
18 / 18 / 08

28 / 18 / 18
18 / 28 / 18
18 / 18 / 28

and

53 / 63 / 63
63 / 53 / 63
63 / 63 / 53

73 / 63 / 63
63 / 73 / 63
63 / 63 / 73

Is there on each block of three combinations one where the drop area is especially large? (The size is the distance of the left column to the right column, e.g. 97.5 on the left and 9 on the right have a distance of 2.5 (100-97.5) plus 9 = 11.5.) If e.g. 08/18/18 has a larger drop area than 18/08/18 and 18/18/08 then the gate at 18 is probably at the first position. Because if it is at the first position then the fence can't drop a bit into it and then the contact points are further away.

So don't go away and continue trying, because I want to know how it looks inside!

Martin Hewitt

I saw a lock in a modelvery close to theone I have ,it was a Wards 9000 , mine is a 9007 .

It has a removable wheel pack thats attached to the cover . So when you remove the cover the wheelpack comes out with .
It has plastic wheels . The combination can be changed "mesh " style . ie the center comes out and you reinsert
I'm interested in your combinations . Are they all R - L - R or L - R - L ??

If I got that I'lltry them out . I'llm try r l r for stars and we will see

[jharveee]

Ok, You have plastic wheels that have flashing left on them........that's whats making your wheels Oddly shaped or appearing to have mountains on them.
Oldfast says the gates are on the opposite side of where the flashing is.? Seems that you have identified where the flashing is,..try 67 in-place of 17 and 10 in-place of 60.

So is 17 still a number? Then another is now 60?
If you're sure of these numbers I would try Brute Forcing.
60-17-BF
17-60-BF
BF-17-60
17-BF-60

that's pretty confusing. I copied the old one.

so it would be:
10-67-BF
67-10-BF
BF-67-10
67-BF-10

[MartinHewitt]

I would not bruteforce now. 8 times 50 or so is 400 combinations of which at least 350 are wasted. I would rather first do the 12 combinations to locate the correct wheel. Maybe one of the numbers is completely wrong maybe just a bit wrong, but it should help narrow it down.

[jharveee]

I agree Martin

This was also in the original post:

Although I would try some HI/LO tests to determine which wheel is 17 and which is 60.
Also assuming you amplified your numbers to find True Center.
This could lead you down the road to ALOT of DIAL Spinning. Or maybe you'll hit the Jack Pot.

[Fritz the Cat]

thanks guys . i'll follow the leads . This Sat or Sun I'll have some results

[Oldfast]

Yeah, I know the conversation about this lock began over here. I never gave it a thought....
I suppose it would've been helpful to pull this little tid-bit into this thread from the beginning.

By the way, the unbranded lock on the Montgomery Ward (Meilink) safes were produced by
a company called Center Manufacturing. And while at first glance they may seem rather cheap
in comparison, don't underestimate them. My first run in with one left me rather disheartened.

However, they have a 'somewhat' predictable personality after you've talked with a few of 'em.

The wheels are stamped/pressed out of plastic or delrin. This process often (but not always)
produces a small tab on the outer edge of the wheel - which happens to be located directly
opposite the gate :) So rather than look for low areas, look for the highs. These tabs will
usually produce peaks in your readings that span 4-7 incs wide. ie. If you find the center of
a peak to be at 0, the gate for that wheel will be around 50. More examples; 41 would be 91.
16=66... 37=87, etc. Find exact center for the peak, then add 50 to land you directly opposite.

I probably shouldn't have presented this as such an absolute. Really, it's just another tool to throw in the bag.
If you happen to catch a nice gate signature, then by all means pursue it as you normally would. However,
if you notice some very large distinct peaks (like you have found)... this can be VERY helpful knowledge.



Below you can see wheels 1&3 have a very distinct tab/flashing. And even though it's
barely visible on w2, it did show up noticeably during my spin session with this one.
All three wheels gave nice peaks which brought me to a fairly quick opening.


To date, I think I've encountered only three of these locks. Although all of them have responded
well to this technique... we all know that 3 is not much of a fair test group. I've also read that this
lock has seen many changes throughout the years it was being produced. What I'm getting at is
this: Use every tool you can, work with what YOU see, & don't rely absolutely on any ONE thing.

I should also clarify...

.....Find exact center for the peak, then add 50 to land you directly opposite.

This may not put you exactly in the gate. It might. Or it may only put you close.
It's not an exact science. Enlarge the area by 4-5 incs in either direction though
and the gate should be within that area.

[MartinHewitt]

Ok, then I would test also the 12 combinations above +/- 50. I think I would then, when I know on which wheel which flash is, park the flash away and scan individual wheels.

[Fritz the Cat]

Wow ! Fantastic pictures showing the peal/flash/tab thingies. Now understand fully whats happening .Those tabs sure take up alot of "wheel space". For sure they would shadow gates or even another tab . Confusing . Now I don't feel like I wasted time . This safe must` truelly be a pain in the ass

Thanks again Oldfast !!

Well my son go`t me a nice magnifing` glass for me to use on a dial viewing tool .I just need a magnet base and white needle and I'm ready to spin .Oh yeah . The Vernier scale .I just readup on how to construct one .

I can stilltry out those combos.Later

[Oldfast]

.....Those tabs sure take up alot of "wheel space". For sure they would shadow gates or even another tab .
Confusing . Now I don't feel like I wasted time . This safe must` truelly be a pain in the ass

Yes and no. If you approach one of these unaware of the flashing, the whole experience can be frustrating.
Like I said, my first encounter left me baffled. I was unable to find any gate sigs that we normally look for.
Later, having had the chance to examine one and understand it a bit more... they began falling open much
easier. The left-over flashing on the edge of the wheels proves to be more advantageous than problematic.

.....For sure they would shadow gates or even another tab.....

Absolutely. One of these tabs will lift the fence off the other wheels and leave you walking the flat-lands.
This may be exactly what's happening in several of your graphs, where you parked wheels at 15 and 60.
That's precisely where your peaks were found!

Your first 'new' graph (very nicely done by the way) has a wonderful amount of information to run with.
But I'd suggest slowing down a bit. Dissect it into small portions and focus on only one thing at a time.

You have two prevalent peaks spanning from about 15-25 and the other, 55-65.
Approx. peak centers: 20 & 60. So the gates will land roughly around 70 and 10.

Although you now have a fairly accurate idea of where two of the gates will be...
I would not start parking wheels there just yet. As someone else mentioned, the
first order of business would be to identify which peaks belong to which wheels.

I know you've been reading up on hi/low testing. This same technique can be applied
to a peak. Focus on one peak at a time. Run some tests and see if you can confirm
which wheel the peak belongs to. Then take and do the same for the other peak.
That would be my suggestion anyway.