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tumbl3r's manipulations

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tumbl3r

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Familiar Face

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Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:01 pm

Location: California

Post Sun May 01, 2016 9:21 pm

tumbl3r's manipulations

TL;DR: I'm a big dummy who installed a loose spline key and did not check for slop in the cam.

Well, my second manipulation did NOT go as well as my first. I started by making an incredibly noisy graph #1 that looked like I was drunk... I was not drunk but I have terrible allergies and had taken a Benadryl earlier -- I chalked it up to that and went to bed. This morning, my second graph was SLIGHTLY less noisy, but still very much a mess. I could however, see that there was a very clear gate signature at 50. Amplification showed either 50 or 51, and H/L testing tagged it at W3. YAY!

Moving on, I proceeded to run through the entire dial and create another super noisy graph #2 that showed nothing conclusive. I made another. Again, nothing conclusive, but it was really really noisy. I did not know the combination, so I took the back off to see if I had screwed up in identifying W3 @50. Nope... It was there... Or at least almost there, but not quite. The center of the gate was NOT at 50,. but rather 52. Well it kinda explained my useless pair of graph #2's, but didn't explain all the noise. Furthermore, I re-evaluated my amplification and it REALLY did seem as if the gate was at 50. I ran the amplification again, and just as before it showed at 50, or maybe 50.5, but not 52. I moved on, chalking it up to my status as a complete and total beginner. I ran another super noisy graph #2 and showed some interestingness around 0 and 40, but the signatures were entirely on the RCP, and almost nothing indicated on the LCP. I amplified both the 0 and 40 areas and did find a HEAVILY weighed RCP signature at 99, but just a lot of noise around 40. Since 99 is in my drop in area, I reasoned it had to be W2, so I skipped the H/L tests.

Since I was not seeing a classic gate signature, I opened the lock again and checked. Indeed, there was a gate W2 @0. Again, my gate centering was off. I corrected my amplification notes and moved on to graph #3.

Since I had seen some interestingness around 40, and Oldfast had recently suggested looking out for things like this, I started up graph #3 at 50. The lock popped at 37.5. Clearly what I was seeing in the noise was a gate, but I'll be dammed if I could do it again and be even the least bit confident of it. I had to remove the back twice to find my mistakes, both of which involved an incorrectly identified gate center and a complete lack of confidence in the data I was interpreting. I do not consider this a successful manipulation, but I do feel like I was ultimately able to get to the bottom of (at least some) of my problems:

I had installed a new spline key in this lock when I mounted it. It went in a little easy which I thought was a good thing -- "I would be able to easily get it back out again", I reasoned. It was NOT a good thing! It was creating slop of up to 1/2 an increment in my readings. I would take a RCP reading, then go to the LCP for its reading. Returning to the RCP reliably indicated 1/4 - 1/2 increment difference from first reading. I simply attributed this to my lack of experience in touch and readings. While I have miles and miles to go in those areas, I'm relieved that there was something else at play. I removed the spline key, put a slight bend into it and re-installed it. I have verified that doing this eliminated all slop in the cam, and my regression tests show that it accounted for a good deal of the noise in my graphs. I have had my wife change the combination to one that does not include an annoying "0" and plan to try again with this lock next weekend.

I have not posted my graphs, since they are a mess, and the margins are filled with notes of things that either didn't pan out, or just indicate a pile of circles with "?" next to them. I will post them if there is interest, but honestly, I'm just happy to call most of that data junk and move on. I should also note that I have completely failed to pick my ASSA Twin with anything more than 5 sidebar pins and three top pins in it... A fun weekend of learning, but with little progress. That's just sometimes how it goes with learning :)

Manipulation #1.5
Combination: 37.5 - 0 - 52
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Fri May 06, 2016 8:26 pm

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

tumbl3r wrote:.....I have not posted my graphs, since they are a mess, and the margins are filled with notes of things that either didn't pan out, or just indicate a pile of circles with "?" next to them. I will post them if there is interest, but honestly, I'm just happy to call most of that data junk and move on.....

No need to post them. You did a nice job of explaining. I was able to follow along nicely.

tumbl3r wrote:.....I'm a big dummy who installed a loose spline key and did not check for slop in the cam.....

Ah yes, that'll definitely throw ya for a loop, lol. But hey, seems you pushed through it & learned a lot.
I keep meaning to do this with a few of my locks to get some experience with a loose spline key too.
I've also wanted to get some experience with a stuck fly but haven't really found a good way to get
a fly to stick - not without damaging the wheel anyway. I'm lookin' forward to your next spin!
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
Lock-Goblin-Gordon

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Post Fri May 06, 2016 9:02 pm

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

Oldfast wrote:I've also wanted to get some experience with a stuck fly but haven't really found a good way to get
a fly to stick - not without damaging the wheel anyway. I'm lookin' forward to your next spin!


You might try using a drop of honey. Then a little water will clean it off without damage. ;)

Gordon
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sat May 07, 2016 6:19 pm

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

Hmmm... I could try it. After it thoroughly dries, you think it might be strong enough to hold it, eh?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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tumbl3r

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Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:01 pm

Location: California

Post Sun May 08, 2016 1:39 pm

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

Oldfast wrote:I'm lookin' forward to your next spin!


Thanks man! I've had a busy weekend, but hope to spend a little time with it tonight.
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tumbl3r

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Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:01 pm

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Post Wed Jun 01, 2016 11:32 pm

Manipulation #2

I just finished my second successful manipulation. This time I used an S&G 6730-163. For whatever reason I had a much more difficult time with the readings on this lock. Comparing it with the S&G 6730-135 that I used for my first manipulation, the LCP on this lock is much less defined. I think the main takeaway from this spin session is how to identify multiple gate signatures in one graph. Finding the gate around 76 on graph #1 meant that I did not need to run the whole dial, and saved a ton of time! Thanks Oldfast for pointing this out on my first spin!

One thing I think could have helped me on this one is the ability to gently pull on the dial when taking the readings. I read about this technique in the book, but had very little success trying it out. Any tips would be much appreciated!

Anyhow, enjoy the docs... As always, I'm all ears for any input or suggestions on how I can improve :smile:

Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.17.03 PM.png


Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.18.16 PM.png


For whatever reason, I really like to do amplifications on their own sheet of graph paper. I tried using the little "x" system on the main graph, but the picture did not emerge as clearly for me as it did when I did it this way. Probably, as my confidence increases, I will be able to use the main graph, but for now, this seems to work better for me.

I actually ran an amplification for the 76 indication as well, but it did not really shape up as a "gate" at this point.

Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.17.41 PM.png


Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.18.02 PM.png


76 certainly did shape up after W3 was out of the way!

Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.17.24 PM.png


Amplification proves it!

Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.18.31 PM.png


Very strangely, H/L tests tag it at W1! I have never heard of W1 indicating second. It makes me wonder if I had run the entire graph #2, would I have found W2 indicating as well. Courtney (my fully endorsed, certified and notarized combination change girl) has reset the combination on this lock, so I will run a full graph #2 on the next manipulation to see if this is the case.

Screen Shot 2016-06-01 at 10.18.44 PM.png


It sure feels good when that nose drops!
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

Posts: 4412

Joined: Thu Mar 31, 2011 9:16 am

Location: Michigan

Post Sun Jun 12, 2016 8:33 pm

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

First off, you tell Courtney she's done a fine job on this one! When I was with Alison, she was certified, but holy shit we
never went so far as to get her endorsed and notarized?! lol She's definitely gone above & beyond the call of duty here.

Also it's really nice to see you spinnin'. I know it has brought me deep enjoyment for some years now.
At times, it seems to help keep me sane even. That 'flow' that it brings allows the rest of the world to
simply melt away for a brief time. And certainly the discipline & devotion brings a gratifying sense of
accomplishment. So anyway, it just excites me when I see someone getting into it. Happy for you.

tumbl3r wrote:.....As always, I'm all ears for any input or suggestions on how I can improve :smile:

I'll throw in my 2 cents... ok, ok... maybe a dollar. lol

Believe I spot a couple rotational mistakes. Be a disservice to you not to mention 'em.
One of them in your Hi-Low tests for 42... the other, during your final run with wheel 2.

Your high test for w1...
4X LEFT to..... 52
3X RIGHT to... 42
2X LEFT to..... 42
Go LEFT to CA and take your reading!
RIGHT to ....... CA

You see? After 3X RIGHT to 42, wheels 2&3 are BOTH positioned where you want them (at 42 with RIGHT rotation).
Going 2X LEFT is unnecessary. More concerning though is that you'd be bringing w3 to 42 with LEFT rotation. No, no.
You originally found the gate sig and true center with RIGHT rotation, so you want to approach 42 with RIGHT rotation
throughout ALL your test configurations.

Your high test for w2... is correct.

Your high test for w3...
4X RIGHT to... 42
3X LEFT to..... 42
2X LEFT to 52
2X RIGHT to... 52 Go RIGHT to CA and take your reading.
LEFT to ........ CA

And naturally, the same concerns exist in your LOW tests for wheels 1&3.

While on the topic of hi/low tests (sorry if I'm overloading you here), but you might considering
throwing wheel 3 first, then w2, and finally w1... as I mention HERE. By the way, that thread is
filled with goodies and worth a read. Lots of good stuff from everyone that time.

The other thing worthy of mention: You found 76 with LEFT rotation, and tagged it to wheel 1.
But when running w2 for the money (76-X-42), you dialed 76 with RIGHT rotation. W1 has the
largest pickup difference (sometimes as much as 1.5 - 2 increments). Dialing it with the opposite
direction from which you found it could place you juuuust on the edge of the gate rather than in it.
Could've been no opening after running w2 around and you'd be left scratching your head. :???: lol

Do you understand what pickup/rotational differences are, why they occur, and how they affect us?
I don't believe the book you're reading mentions it. In fact I don't recall coming across ANY literature
that thoroughly covers (most don't even touch on the topic). I know it took me awhile to understand.

p.s. Isolation is another very powerful tool that could've really kicked some ass in the scenario you had here.
However, I'll throw that at you later. I think you're coming along splendidly and should continue with what
you've been doing. Focus on visualizing the state of the wheel pack, which wheels you're moving, and
in what direction you're moving them in.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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tumbl3r

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Familiar Face

Posts: 135

Joined: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:01 pm

Location: California

Post Tue Jun 14, 2016 11:36 am

Re: tumbl3r's manipulations

Oldfast wrote:First off, you tell Courtney she's done a fine job on this one! When I was with Alison, she was certified, but holy shit we
never went so far as to get her endorsed and notarized?! lol She's definitely gone above & beyond the call of duty here.


I let her know you said that... It had her cracking up. That line was actually a riff on what you'd written in your safe chronicles :smile:

Oldfast wrote:Also it's really nice to see you spinnin'. I know it has brought me deep enjoyment for some years now.
At times, it seems to help keep me sane even. That 'flow' that it brings allows the rest of the world to
simply melt away for a brief time. And certainly the discipline & devotion brings a gratifying sense of
accomplishment. So anyway, it just excites me when I see someone getting into it. Happy for you.


I cannot begin to thank you enough for taking the time to look through my manipulations and
help me with them! I feel really honored that you are willing to do this for me. Your enthusiasm for
this stuff is absolutely contagious; it was the materials you'd written that gave me the inspiration
and confidence to try it out. Again, thank you very much!

Oldfast wrote:Believe I spot a couple rotational mistakes. Be a disservice to you not to mention 'em.
One of them in your Hi-Low tests for 42... the other, during your final run with wheel 2.


Ah yes... It seems as if I've tried to do this without the book in front of me a little too early LOL!

Oldfast wrote:Your high test for w1...
4X LEFT to..... 52
3X RIGHT to... 42
2X LEFT to..... 42
Go LEFT to CA and take your reading!
RIGHT to ....... CA

You see? After 3X RIGHT to 42, wheels 2&3 are BOTH positioned where you want them (at 42 with RIGHT rotation).
Going 2X LEFT is unnecessary. More concerning though is that you'd be bringing w3 to 42 with LEFT rotation. No, no.
You originally found the gate sig and true center with RIGHT rotation, so you want to approach 42 with RIGHT rotation
throughout ALL your test configurations.

Your high test for w2... is correct.

Your high test for w3...
4X RIGHT to... 42
3X LEFT to..... 42
2X LEFT to 52
2X RIGHT to... 52 Go RIGHT to CA and take your reading.
LEFT to ........ CA

And naturally, the same concerns exist in your LOW tests for wheels 1&3.


Well now, this probably explains the pile of crumpled up and inconclusive high/low test sheets in my recycle bin :???:
High/low testing and wheel pack visualization has far and away been the most difficult part of my learning thus far.
I was thinking that, because my lock has movable flys, I did not need to worry about rotational direction. I have a safe lock
gutted on my desk now and have been playing with the parts to try to better understand fly interaction and how this might be the case.
I think it is going to take a bit more study, but I believe it would be chalked up to imperfection in the fly grooves???
Anyhow, I will spend some more time in front of a dial and with my gutted lock, but I think I see why this would throw things off.
I also believe it is almost certainly why I had so much trouble with gate centering on manipulation #1.5. This is awesome stuff!

Oldfast wrote:While on the topic of hi/low tests (sorry if I'm overloading you here), but you might considering
throwing wheel 3 first, then w2, and finally w1... as I mention HERE. By the way, that thread is
filled with goodies and worth a read. Lots of good stuff from everyone that time.


Not overloading at all... I will read, practice and re-read this stuff as many times as it takes to sink in, LOL!
That looks like a great thread... I will study it carefully. Especially since I've struggled with high/low testing,
I'm sure it will really help me!

I understand intellectually why throwing 3,2,1 would be more efficient and prevent dial clearing, but it will probably
take some time in front of a dial for me to really be able to internalize it and get a feel for the actual mechanics.
I will spend that time! If I'm perfectly honest, I do tons of unnecessary dial clearing just to make sure I know
where I am with 100% certainty. Again, the 3D vision of the wheel pack is getting better, but still eludes me.

Oldfast wrote:The other thing worthy of mention: You found 76 with LEFT rotation, and tagged it to wheel 1.
But when running w2 for the money (76-X-42), you dialed 76 with RIGHT rotation. W1 has the
largest pickup difference (sometimes as much as 1.5 - 2 increments). Dialing it with the opposite
direction from which you found it could place you juuuust on the edge of the gate rather than in it.
Could've been no opening after running w2 around and you'd be left scratching your head. :???: lol


That would be far from the first time I've been left scratching my head in this adventure LOL!
I think this is probably why my centering was off in my previous, failed manipulation. I was really
struggling to figure that one out. I probably centered it right, and ran it left. I wish I had saved the
docs from that run so I could look back and check. Failures can usually teach us more than successes.

Oldfast wrote:Do you understand what pickup/rotational differences are, why they occur, and how they affect us?
I don't believe the book you're reading mentions it. In fact I don't recall coming across ANY literature
that thoroughly covers (most don't even touch on the topic). I know it took me awhile to understand.


I think so... At lease in principle. I still don't totally grasp why movable flys don't prevent this from being a problem,
but I think I have the general idea. I'm sure, with further study of my gutted lock, it will become more clear to me.
It is due to the flys, and their diameter, right??? W1 shows more difference because of the cumulative effect of all
three flys being stacked together if I'm understanding things correctly.

Oldfast wrote:p.s. Isolation is another very powerful tool that could've really kicked some ass in the scenario you had here.
However, I'll throw that at you later. I think you're coming along splendidly and should continue with what
you've been doing. Focus on visualizing the state of the wheel pack, which wheels you're moving, and
in what direction you're moving them in.



I cannot wait to learn about more techniques. I actually have another manipulation that I've not published yet. I will
revisit it to see if I'd made the same mistakes I did on this one. If, by some miracle I didn't, it would really just be luck.
It was that run where I struggled the most with high/low tests. I'm not exaggerating when I say I threw out over a dozen
worksheets!

Your advice to get more adept at visualizing the wheel pack and its state will probably do more to help me at this point
than running more manipulations will. I will spend some time doing that, running high/lows from different directions
and reversing the process to wheels 3,2,1.

Thank you again, very very much for your help, Mike! Keypicking really is a wonderful place!

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