Vintage Mosler - no combo - mechanism & manipulation

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

Hello all!!

I'm a new member - thanks for having me. If you don't mind, I'm just going to copy and paste a post I created on a different site which discusses old safe's, but does not like to get into the specifics of manipulation...

I recognize there are understandable trust issues in assisting a stranger with safe manipulation - no one knows me from Adam, but before dismissing this post summarily, please take the time to read. I fully understand there are no quick/easy tricks to open locked safes. I've done whatever research I can and am just looking for a better understanding of the mechanism for a safe from this manufacturer/era and a nudge in the right direction from people with knowledge and expertise far beyond my own.

I work as a Computer Tech for Filer School District in Idaho - have been for about 6 years now. The first year I started, I traveled to an old schoolhouse out in the middle of nowhere which just happens to be part of our school district. It is a beautiful old school house located in a town that once thrived as a hub for agricultural commerce, but as is the case for many small rural agricultural towns, as transporting goods to larger cities in the vicinity became easier and more cost effective, banks, businesses, etc. in this small town closed down over the years - in this instance, now leaving an all but derelict town with a beautiful schoolhouse in its midst.

As I walked into the lobby for the first time 6 years ago, I saw this:

http://imgur.com/a/5nTXx

You should see a few shots of what I think is a very old, decorative Mosler safe.

Bottom line, this safe is old, a piece of this small community's history/heritage (it was donated to the school by the back which closed down). We look at it as a sort of time capsule. We don't expect to find anything of value in it, but opening it is an ongoing WISH as we continue to celebrate this school's 100th anniversary. Last year, an ad was placed in the paper to anyone who wanted to come and try to manipulate the safe open (pro or amateur), but no one succeeded. We can't afford to pay someone hundreds to fly in to do it, and we certainly don't want it drilled or cosmetically damaged in any way in our attempts to open it.

Back to my role in this - yes, I'm a computer tech. Fore my entire 25+ career in various fields, including production/project management, graphic designer, engraver, and so on, I've always got ahead with my problem solving abilities. I HATE not being able to figure something out, and this safe has been taunting me for 6 years! I haven't really tried to manipulate the safe in earnest yet. I've read what I could find out about it, but most of it is company history and NOT about the specific mechanism that lies on the back side of the front door. I'm guessing it pre-dates some of the newer/common security countermeasures. This is where I need help from the experts. I do have some experience picking/manipulating pad locks and door locks, but this is a whole new realm for me, and yes, I know it's NOT going to be easy or fast to figure out!

I look forward to hearing from anyone who might be able to offer some beginning assistance as to how I might start to try and identify numbers on a Mosler safe this old. I don't know if putting any tension on the handle will help identify those notches/numbers - it just locks the dial if I put too much tension on the lever. I have messed with the dial a little bit. It's smooth for the most part (for it's age), but I don't know if I'll be able to pick up on really subtle changes in friction. I did notice that as I span the dial to the left several times, there would come a point where the weight/load seemed to increase as I was spinning. That's as much time as I've spent with it until I have someone point me in the proper direction as to the best way to try and attack/manipulate the lock.

Thank you in advance for anyone willing to help. It seems like a small/trivial thing for a school district and computer nerd to worry about - I guess we could just keep admiring it as a piece of art in the front entrance, but it would be so wonderful to be able to open this as a means to lift spirits, see what might be inside by way of a time capsule, and celebrate the history of this quaint little school.

Hope to hear from you!

Sincerely,

Filer_Computer_Tech

Further to the above, I did get a few helpful replies by PM. I'm told the lock type is either a 5H or Mosler 10 1/2 - Both locks have 4 wheels plus driver.

I'd love to see a drawing/diagram of the mechanisms in question. Even better, if anyone knows of a video shoing manipulation techniques for this type of safe lock mechanism, that would be awesome! Failing that, any reference quide or tutorial that is available online that might explain to me the workings of the lock mechanism, and best practices for attack/manipulation, it would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance for any members willing to shout out to assist me or nudge me in the right direction. I'm not a total noob - I took up the hobby of picking open padlocks and door locks (just standard pins for now) and enjoy the mental challenge immensely. Looking forward to being part of this community!'

Hope to hear from you soon,

FCT

[jharveee]

Nice looking safe.
Wish you the best on your quest to open it.
Would like to be of more help, but I don't have any info that would be of value.
Please keep us posted on your progress, as I believe it will make an interesting story.

[Riyame]

Well, not too much to add here that I didn't post on LP101. Hope you can get it opened.

[MBI]

A book you might want to read is The National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation to get you started. It's been helpful to many here who have decided to learn to manipulate safe and vault locks.

Another book to help get you started is a book that was compiled by Daggers, a member of this forum, in part using information gleaned from other members here. It's directed to a more entry-level audience than the first book I listed. He's selling print copies online, but he's offered a pdf download of his book for free to members of keypicking.com:
viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8688

Once you begin learning to manipulate the lock on your safe, you'll probably run across specific questions or problems which you can add to this thread and get direct help from forum members to get you over those hurdles. For some forum members it seems it's easier for them to answer individual questions as they come up, than it is to try to write out a detailed tutorial of the whole process for someone who is just getting started.

Oldfast is another member of our forum who has been posting well documented instructions and pictures of his journey to learn safe manipulation. A lot can be learned from his thread:
viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7432

Welcome to the forum, and I hope we're able to help you achieve your goal.

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

An older variant on the design, the direct-entry fence, does not use a spring-loaded lever-fence or thelever/cam arrangement as described here. Instead, the door bolt handle itself moves the fence into the wheelpack to engage the gates. Direct-entry locks are usually considered to have lower security than the Group 2design shown here and are found primarily in older containers as well as in many of the more inexpensivecurrent-production fire safes. - Safecracking for the computer scientist∗Matt Blaze

Based on the photos/illustrations generously posted and the written quote above, would it be correct to say this older style of combination lock is what is referred to as a "direct-entry" combination lock? So, contrary to modern locks which use a spring loaded cam and fence that engages automatically after the correct combination has been dialed, with "direct-entry" locks, the handle is used to slide a fence or piece of metal into the 3 aligned gates which at the same time retracts the bolts keeping the safe locked?

Can I maybe get a warmer, colder, or BINGO??

If I'm on the right track, would I be correct in assuming that the arm of the safe door might be able to be used to detect the gates due to imperfections in manufacturing/production, or is there a better way? Still not sure what the most logical approach would be for someone without advanced tools or auto-dialers.

Much thanks for all the help received thus far, both in this forum and a few others.

FCT

[Filer_Computer_Tech]

A book you might want to read is The National Locksmith Guide to Manipulation to get you started. It's been helpful to many here who have decided to learn to manipulate safe and vault locks.

Another book to help get you started is a book that was compiled by Daggers, a member of this forum, in part using information gleaned from other members here. It's directed to a more entry-level audience than the first book I listed. He's selling print copies online, but he's offered a pdf download of his book for free to members of keypicking.com:
https://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=8688

Once you begin learning to manipulate the lock on your safe, you'll probably run across specific questions or problems which you can add to this thread and get direct help from forum members to get you over those hurdles. For some forum members it seems it's easier for them to answer individual questions as they come up, than it is to try to write out a detailed tutorial of the whole process for someone who is just getting started.

Oldfast is another member of our forum who has been posting well documented instructions and pictures of his journey to learn safe manipulation. A lot can be learned from his thread:
https://keypicking.com/viewtopic.php?f=100&t=7432

Welcome to the forum, and I hope we're able to help you achieve your goal.

That's some great info and advice. The learning curve is steep, but I'm making progress thanks to generous posters such as yourself. Thank you so much! Look forward to reviewing everything you mentioned.

FCT

[Oldfast]

Welcome!

.....Based on the photos/illustrations generously posted and the written quote above, would it be correct to say this older style of combination lock is what is referred to as a "direct-entry" combination lock?.....

This can be determined from the outside of the safe. Apply pressure to the handle while turning the dial.
If it is a direct entry / straight in type fence, you will feel tension/pressure/scraping while turning the dial.

If I'm on the right track, would I be correct in assuming that the arm of the safe door might be able to be used to detect the gates due to imperfections in manufacturing/production, or is there a better way?.....

IF you determine it is indeed a direct entry fence, then yes, readings will be taken via the handle.
There's a variety of ways to set up for this. Attaching a Laser, rod or wire. Or, one member used
a dial gauge & a magnetic block. Take a look here, here, and here for some ideas.

[bitbuster]

Per Dave McOmie Safe Lock Manual: The 100# dial and L-handle used with the #10 lock in Mosler's thin-wall cast iron safes. Unfortunately, Mosler also used a few of these dials and handles with the 5H lock in their thick-wall cast iron safes. If you have a safe with this dial and handle, and if you cannot tell thin from thick wall,then do the following: Apply clockwise torque to the handle while turning the dial. If you feel a bind, you have a thin-wall safe with a #10 lock.If you don't feel a bind, then you have a thick-wall safe with a 5H lock.