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Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

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hammong

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Location: Maryland

Post Tue Jan 07, 2020 4:58 pm

Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Hello all -- Thanks to the insight on this forum, and the great video from LockManipulator on here, I was finally able to crack this Hayman floor safe that I've been working on.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18a7X87t6BIRN5EpmAhR2ftHdI4Wf-3J7

I have been graphing this thing off and on for about 30 hours (!!!) and was getting really frustrated. I would routinely find the number at 69/70 and it showed up best on AWR, and a bit fuzzy at AWL. Doing the High/Low test on 69.5 multiple times, it would show a split result between W2 and W3, inconclusive on the High/Low test, but very obviously a gate on a wheel somewhere in the pack!

Everybody bit of advice I've read on this forum and elsewhere mentions to take a light touch on the dial, and stop when you barely feel the contact points. On this safe, I think I had too light a touch - the dial was pretty stiff, and seemed to get stiffer 1/8 to 1/4 inside the perceived contact points. I am sure now (after so long of messing with it) that I wasn't reading the contact points at all, but stopping short on a lot of them and reading the stiffness of the lock instead of the points.

Going back on a 10th or so attempt graphing AWL, I started reading the more obvious stops on the Left and Right contact points, and low and behold I now saw a point around 12. This is in the middle of my contact points (7.7/13.25). Ran High/Low tests, conclusively determined that L12 was on W3. Great! I stopped there after graphing 7L. Oops. Bad move, instructions everybody mentions amplifying +/- 5 numbers, so that was amped 7-17. Stopping was a big mistake in this case. Read on to find out why!

So, I plugged W3 into an AWR graph, and positively identified 69.5, and H/L tests confirmed the same on W2. Not surprising, my wild variation in H/L tests on 69.5 earlier had W2/W3 jockying for position. That's because I should never have tested W3 in the first place, just W1/W2 in H/L testing. In both cases, W2 had a larger contact area, ignoring W3 completely in the test.

OK so I think I'm at 12 on W3, and 69.5 on W2. I brute force the lock at 2-increment all the way around 0-98 and back again, the second time absolutely more carefully. No-open.

Ok, something's wrong. I'm positively sure about the 69.5R point, and 75% sure around 12L at this point, but one of these must be off a bit because brute force didn't open the lock.

So I start testing x-69.5-13 around the entire dial. No dice. Then x-69.5-11. Then x-69.5-10. Then x-69.5-9. (this necessitated another daily break after hours of dialing). Next day, x-69.5-8. Hmm. Something feels different. New day? Better feeling in fingertips? I decide to check contact points at 98-69.5-8, 97-69.5-7, holy smokes - there's a gate there.

I fiddled with it another hour or so. Found it. 6-70-5. Last number in the "forbidden zone". Two numbers within 1.5 increments of one of the contact points. Safe opened!

https://drive.google.com/open?id=18Wqlqizxz988ATxCcP69ZMUCjWyUUboS

I then went and re-checked graphs for 0-10 again, and low and behold, I DO see a drop at 6. Oops. I wasted 20+ hours looking over something I didn't look closely enough at. I never got down that far because I was fixated on "12" on the graph.

Showing what I thought was a gate at 12:

https://drive.google.com/open?id=180BSIt14GlhEJp8qaivZSkk5Hd6Hhu9g

Cheers!!
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MartinHewitt

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Post Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:01 pm

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Hey, it's open! Then it doesn't matter if it was 1 hour or 30 hours. And if it is a real, closed safe it is more fun than with just a lock mounted on a board.

What does your last graph shown here actually show, i.e. which wheels move and which don't?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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hammong

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Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Location: Maryland

Post Tue Jan 07, 2020 9:48 pm

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

The graph posted was the last one I drew, after I had determined that I was reading the contact points all wrong (too much sensitivity, not reading the obvious contact). I focused on the higher contact point because it typically showed the most deviation, usually 13 1/4 to 13 1/8. The lower point rarely showed more than 7.6 to 7.7 and even that was difficult to determine with a 10x loupe.

I showed it because it was the ultimate cause of me missing the gates at 5 and 6 because I was so focused on 12. I might do a AWR graph for fun with W3 set on 6 and see if I get a nice sharp point at 69.5 and maybe 4.5 will show up. Right now, it's impossible to split 5 and 6 with AWL, it just looks like 1 extra-wide gate.

I have opened a gun safe with a S&G group II before, but the owner could only remember the last number so I had a definite point to start with. I've opened my old Meilink and some Sentry Safes in the past, but this was my first S&G from scratch, and damn the 6-70-5 threw me for a total loop with the 2 numbers so close to the contact area, and the last number in the forbidden zone. I wasted dozens or hours graphing around missing what was right under my nose. =) But, I learned a lot, improved my finger work, sensitivity, and was a true test of patience (my wife and daughter were amazed I focused on something for so long uninterrupted!)
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mastersmith

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Location: Miami Township, Ohio

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:41 am

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Well done! nothing like it when that dial stops solid!
"All ye who come this art to see / to handle anything must cautious be...." Benjamin Franklin
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L4R3L2

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Joined: Mon Oct 01, 2018 3:48 am

Location: Sutter County, CA

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 6:28 am

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Good job. Congratulations!

Now, (for lever fence locks, any way) there is the "forbidden zone", the "real forbidden zone", the "really forbidden zone", and the "super forbidden zone".

The "forbidden zone" published by manufacturers is very broad, and incorporates a wide margin of safety and is relatively easy to remember. They do this to allow for variances amongst locks. The real forbidden zone is not nearly this wide.

The "real forbidden zone" lies from the left contact point to the right contact point. This varies between manufacturers, and even from lock to lock. Also, as you know, the contact points themselves change slightly as well during cycling, which is how we manipulate. This is the forbidden zone you want to avoid. You'll also see later that you don't want your last number to be anywhere near the left contact point.

The "really forbidden zone" is within the "real forbidden zone". It runs from the left contact point to a number or two in from the right contact point. in this area, the lever will drop, and the lock will unlock, but you will be unable to relock the lock. This is the forbidden zone you must avoid.

Some locks exhibit the phenomenon of the "super forbidden zone". It is a very small area within the "really forbidden zone", where the lever drops and binds, and will not even unlock. You are locked out. This small area is within a number from the left contact point. Not all locks will exhibit this total lockout phenomenon, though. Since this can cause a total lockout, this is the forbidden zone you MUST avoid at any cost. Since the lever could slip into the gate anywhere near the left contact point, you definitely should stay at least a couple numbers below it on your last number.

In practice, if you stay well away from the contact area for your last number, you should be O.K. (No promises!) Of course, it's always advisable to respect the published manufacturer's forbidden zone just to be on the safe side. Whoever set your combination was flirting with danger, especially being pretty near the left contact point which can cause the most serious trouble.

Here's an example from one S&G 6741:
Contact points, ~6.25 - 13.75
Last combo number.....condition
~6- O.K. (But, STAY AWAY FROM THE VICINITY OF THE LEFT CONTACT POINT)
~6.25-6.75 further CCW past number dead stops at W3 gate edge, lever drops and gets stuck, may or may not open, can cause lockout.
~7 further CCW past number dead stops at W3 gate edge, lever drops and gets stuck, will open but cannot relock.
~8-11 lever drops and gets stuck, will open but cannot relock.
~12 functions, but catches gate edge with further CCW turn.
~12.25+ O.K.
Last edited by L4R3L2 on Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:18 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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femurat

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Joined: Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:47 pm

Location: Italy

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:37 am

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Welcome to the club, hammong!

L4R3L2, your explanation rocks, but you're missing the official forbidden zone in your example :lol:

Cheers :)
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AL usher69

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Posts: 121

Joined: Sat Feb 06, 2016 1:03 am

Location: New York

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 10:55 am

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

L4R3L2 wrote:Good job. Congratulations!

Now, (for lever fence locks, any way) there is the "forbidden zone", the "real forbidden zone", the "really forbidden zone", and the "super forbidden zone".

The "forbidden zone" published by manufacturers is very broad, and incorporates a wide margin of safety and is relatively easy to remember. They do this to allow for variances amongst locks. The real forbidden zone is not nearly this wide.

The "real forbidden zone" lies from the left contact point to the right contact point. This varies between manufacturers, and even from lock to lock. Also, as you know, the contact points themselves change slightly as well during cycling, which is how we manipulate. This is the forbidden zone you want to avoid. You'll also see later that you don't want your last number to be anywhere near the left contact point.

The "really forbidden zone" is within the "real forbidden zone". It runs from the left contact point to a number or two in from the right contact point. in this area, the lever will drop, and the lock will unlock, but you will be unable to relock the lock. This is the forbidden zone you must avoid.

Some locks exhibit the phenomenon of the "super forbidden zone". It is a very small area within the "really forbidden zone", where the lever drops and binds, and will not even unlock. You are locked out. This small area is within a number from the left contact point. Not all locks will exhibit this total lockout phenomenon, though. Since this can cause a total lockout, this is the forbidden zone you MUST avoid at any cost. Since the lever could slip into the gate anywhere near the left contact point, you definitely should stay at least a couple numbers below it on your last number.

In practice, if you stay well away from the contact area for your last number, you should be O.K. (No promises!) Of course, it's always advisable to respect the published manufacturer's forbidden zone just to be on the safe side. Whoever set your combination was flirting with danger, especially being pretty near the left contact point which can cause the most serious trouble.

Here's an example from one S&G 6741:
Contact points, ~6.25 - 13.75
Last combo number.....condition
~6- O.K.
~6.25-6.75 further CCW past number dead stops at W3 gate edge, lever drops and gets stuck, may or may not open, can cause lockout.
~7 further CCW past number dead stops at W3 gate edge, lever drops and gets stuck, will open but cannot relock.
~8-11 lever drops and gets stuck, will open but cannot relock.
~12 functions, but catches gate edge with further CCW turn.
~12.25+ O.K.


Thank you so much this is the first time I've ever heard this and the education is great.
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GWiens2001

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Lock-Goblin-Gordon
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Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2012 3:05 am

Location: Arizona, United States

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 2:13 pm

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Fantastic work! The first success is a huge step and a big motivation. For me, each open is a rush of victory.

Gordon

P.S. And you thought normal locks was an expensive hobby! :mrgreen:
Just when you think you've learned it all, that is when you find you haven't learned anything yet.
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hammong

Newbie

Posts: 6

Joined: Thu Jan 02, 2020 4:53 pm

Location: Maryland

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 5:18 pm

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

Go easy on me, the terminology is still sinking in.

Say my contact points are 7.7 and 13.25

Which of these is the LCP and which is the RCP? Obviously looking at the dial, the 7.7 is on the "left" and the 13.25 is on the "right" - but when you turn the turn "left" you hit the 13.25, which is opposite of where it is. Hence my confusion. Would 13.25 be the RCP or LCP in this case?

Thx!

Noob Cracker. =)
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MartinHewitt

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Location: Germany

Post Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:16 pm

Re: Cracked my first S&G - Hayman Floor Safe

7 is left, 13 is right.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt

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