Hi - Lo testing

[williamjcoates]

Hi all,
I need some clarification. Why would the widest gap/value between contact points determine what wheel the gate is on. I thought that if you placed a gate under the fence the cam gap would be closer? But when testing with hi-lo the larger gap determines the wheel...help
...slightly confused..

[kerti]

Hi all,
I need some clarification. Why would the widest gap/value between contact points determine what wheel the gate is on. I thought that if you placed a gate under the fence the cam gap would be closer? But when testing with hi-lo the larger gap determines the wheel...help
...slightly confused..

You suppose that 34.5 is the gate. And the gate 34.5 is on wheel 3 indeed.
-------------------------------------------------
gate not under the fence=GNF
gate is under the fence=GF
---------------------------------------------------------
Low test
wheel 1 wheel2 wheel3 FENCE
R24.5 L34.5 L34.5 contact area 9 GNF GNF GF closest to cam center
L34.5 R24.5 L34.5 9 1/8 GNF GNF GF close to cam center
L34.5 L34.5 R24.5 9 2/4 GNF GNF GNF far from cam center

In the third case the fence is far from cam center because we definitely MOVED OFF gate from fence. In first and second cases the gate is under the fence.

[GWiens2001]

Hi all,
I need some clarification. Why would the widest gap/value between contact points determine what wheel the gate is on. I thought that if you placed a gate under the fence the cam gap would be closer? But when testing with hi-lo the larger gap determines the wheel...help
...slightly confused..

The simple answer is that the lower the lever's nose can drop into the drive cam, the smaller the gap. The drive cam's drop area gets smaller the further down the nose drops in, so the smaller the distance between contact points, the closer to 'home' you are.

Why the largest change in number is the indicating wheel? Because the nose is not dropping in as far, so it shows that you no longer have the gate under the fence.

Gordon

[williamjcoates]

Thanks for the replies,
I guess I have been looking at the hi-lo test ass-backwards. I was thinking that if the gate was under the fence it would drop lower giving a smaller value and this would indicate which wheel. But we are actually looking for the greatest value which would indicate that the wheel with the actual gate would be furthest away from the fence. Still confusing but I will figure it out.
Bill

[webpirate]

The smaller the gap the more likely you have a correct number. But only if the range is 1-2 numbers on either side. If the gap gets smaller for 4 or more numbers you can ignore that and move on. Where wide gaps come in handy is when you are looking for small gaps and the value of the gap never changes..then you can assume that the wheel you parked is the biggest wheel that creating the wide gaps. Then with that information you would then work on the wheel that was parked.

[Squelchtone]

this has always confused me as well and I think I also have been thinking about it "backwards"

Let's assume I've done an AWL graph and there seems to be an obvious gate at 47

In the past I would do a hi-lo test as follows

47 20 20
20 47 20
20 20 47

but from things I have read, it seems people put the low test number in the 3 locations I am putting my known/assumed gate number, this is where I get lost.

So I guess I'm suppose to be doing it like this to test for 47

20 47 47 9.2
47 20 47 9.2
47 47 20 9.0

and then I am not quite sure how to interpret the contact point area to determine which wheel has 47 as a gate.. if the 3rd test had 9.0 as the CP area, is 20 a real gate on wheel 3 or is 47 a real gate on wheel 1 or wheel 2 ?

Thanks for any easy to follow explanations,
Squelchtone

[webpirate]

You are correct in then first way you explained.

47 20 20
20 47 20
20 20 47

Is the best way.

To make things even easier I have found that wheel 1 is rarely the first one to reveal a gate. So to save time my first step is to park wheel 1 on 20 and then do wheel 2 and 3 right. And in 99% of cases the gate revealed is on wheel three....
So if we reveal 47 as the gate its a quick test to see which wheel its on by 20 20 47 and then 20 47 20
So if 47 is on wheel 3 I park wheel 1 on 20, wheel wheel 2 on 18 and wheel 3 in 47... Then carefully I navigate myself back just enough to catch wheel two and move it to 16 and then wheel 3 back to 47. You have to be careful and pay attention that you don't spin too man times. That's where a soft touch comes in handy because if you are a soft touch you can feel wheel two catch and stop...rince and repeat (w2 14, 12, 10, 08 etc) until you find the gate on wheel 2... Unfortunately there is no shortcut for wheel 1...you have to try out all combinations with wheel 1...but 99% of group 2 locks will let you get away with increments of 2...

[mercurial]

There seems to be a lot of misunderstanding surrounding this. Hopefully this clarifies the matter :

A traditional high-low test involves moving one wheel at a time away from the area where we have found a suspected gate.

When the wheel containing the suspected gate is moved away to a higher or lower test number, the suspected gate/low spot will have been moved out from under the fence, and therefore the contact area will increase - because the low spot is no longer under the fence.

For example, lets say we have found a suspected gate at 47, we then dial the following test combinations & get these results :

20 47 47 9.0 (this test positions wheel one elsewhere)
47 20 47 9.0 (this test positions wheel two elsewhere)
47 47 20 9.2 (this test positions wheel three elsewhere)

We can see that when wheel three is positioned elsewhere(at 20)the contact area increases. This tells us that moving wheel three took the low spot away from being underneath the fence. So the low spot/suspected gate is on wheel three.

Put another way, when wheel three is not set to 47, our good indication disappears, and when wheel 3 is at 47, our good indication is present. Therefore the low spot/gate we have found is on wheel three.

These tests must be performed taking rotational direction into account. If a low spot was found with left rotation, that number must be dialled with left rotation in all test combinations. 47L 47R 20L is not the same as 47L 47L 20R.

Some people choose to perform a slightly different test, where two wheels are thrown off from the suspected gate. Again, with a suspected gate at 47, using a test number of 20, the test combinations would be as follows :

47 20 20
20 47 20
20 20 47

If testing in this manner, the test combination with the smallest contact area will identify the wheel that the suspected gate belongs to.

The traditional high-low test, that throws off only one wheel at a time from the area of interest is more likely to be accurate than this alternative method. That said, neither method is fail safe.

On another note :

The smaller the gap the more likely you have a correct number. But only if the range is 1-2 numbers on either side. If the gap gets smaller for 4 or more numbers you can ignore that and move on.

is wrong.

It is true that narrower contact areas correlate with gates, but definitely NOT only when the indication is 1-2 numbers wide! I have never seen a gate signature only 1 increment wide & doubt I ever will.

As Mark Bates, a master of manipulation, describes here http://www.safeventures.com/news.php?news_id=16, a common gate signature that is often missed is when the contact area narrows, but does not widen again, so do not ignore indications that are more than 4 numbers wide!

...Mark

[williamjcoates]

Its great to read all the replies. It makes things a bit clearer. The read up from Mark Bates was especially interesting. I now plan on practicing parking wheels a lot more and have made a cut away S&G 6700 series lock to practice on. Using the cut away really aids in monitoring the movement of the wheels. Thanks again for all the replies.
Bill

As Mark Bates, a master of manipulation, describes here http://www.safeventures.com/news.php?news_id=16, a common gate signature that is often missed is when the contact area narrows, but does not widen again, so do not ignore indications that are more than 4 numbers wide!

...Mark

[Oldfast]

Great discussion here guys!

Mercurial has laid out possibly the most clear & precise explanation that I've come across
in regards to high/low testing. Well thought out & straight forward on the how & why of it!

All in all, everyone has covered this quite well.
The only thing I can think to add/change here
is the ORDER in which you throw/test the wheels.

From the way I'm seeing it wrote, I'm assuming most people throw w1, then 2, then 3.
This means you're clearing the dial 3X and each time dialing in an entire test combo.

Try just the opposite. Throw w3 FIRST.... then w2.... and finally w1.
As this is the natural order in which they pick up anyway, you'll find
this saves you time & rotations. No need to clear the dial each time.

So rather than this....

20 47 47 ... 9.0
47 20 47 ... 9.0
47 47 20 ... 9.2

Try this....

47 47 20 ... 9.2
47 20 47 ... 9.0
20 47 47 ... 9.0

Your still doing the exact same thing, just in a more efficient order.

[Mikeh727]

Well explained by everyone!

I agree with Oldfast..the 3-2-1 technique is much faster since you can move right through without clearing the dial. It takes a little practice to make sure you know you remember where you are on the dial, but it's a great technique.

I'm not a fan of high-low testing. One other option is to spin each wheel in isolation. There are risks and rewards that you have to balance, but it eliminates high-low testing and works well. At least usually . The times it doesn't, you end up going back to spinning wheels together, but it sometimes makes for a much quicker entry.

Anyhow, have fun!

-Mike

[tumbl3r]

Hi everyone! I've been working through high/low testing today and things are clearing up for me.
I'm getting better at visualization and more clearly understanding why rotational direction is important.
I am, however, confused about throwing W2 in the second high/low.

Let's say I start off AWR and find a gate at 31. I can throw W1 L41 and move W2 and W3 together around to R31:

Left: 41
W2 & W3 AR to 31

Similarly, I can dial W1 R31, W2 L41, W3 R31

Right: 31
Left: 41
Right: 31

And finally, for throwing W3, I can dial AWR, and bring W3 AL to 41

AWR: 31
Left around to W3: 41

So that's the first High/Low test. Let's say I tag R31 @W3.

Run a graph and find another gate at L57

Similar to the first graph, I can bring everything to R67 to throw W1, then bring W2 & W3 AL to 57, and finally bring W1 AR to 31.

R: 67
L: 57
R: 31

The trouble comes when I want to throw W2. There is, as far as I can tell, no way to park W1 @ L57 while still dialing W3 @ R31.
Since I can no longer bring W2 & W3 around right to the same number together, I'm just not seeing how I can throw W2 and still
get the direction correct for my known gate on W3.

I'm sorry if this is a very newbie question. The book I have does not really cover this, but some help I received from Oldfast made me
understand the importance of rotational direction. Thanks for any help you can offer, and Happy July 4th!

[femurat]

You want to dial W3 @ R31 after having left W2 @ R57? Easy: Dial W3 @ approximately L40 and then switch direction, reach it from the other side and push it just a few numbers... to R31.

Cheers

[tumbl3r]

Man! That's embarrassing! I just tried that out on my lock and it works like a top. I don't know why I didn't think of that

Thank you very much for your help! I really appreciate it.

[femurat]

You're welcome. It's easy when you know how