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Lock manipulation without graphs?

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kerti

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Post Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:23 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

mastersmith wrote:No, not new. The concepts are the same, how much you document is the only difference. While graphing you document ALL of your readings when all you need to know are the DIFFERENT readings. If you don't find a difference, ignore it.

Oh,I understand! Thank you.
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kerti

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Post Fri Apr 03, 2015 5:30 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

webpirate wrote:Sometimes you can hear and feel the difference... Once in a while I will look at the lock to move the wheel where I want and then look away to see if I can hear and feel a difference from the last number I tried... I am always looking for ways to test myself..

Thanks for your video! I viewed it a few times .:cool: For a first time I thought it is a videojoke :D About 6 minutes,quickly! Do you use only one contact point for reading? Do you use about 20 readings per one turn of the wheels?
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webpirate

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Post Mon Apr 06, 2015 2:38 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

In this video I moved 2 numbers but 2 numbers doesn't always work on all locks...
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:10 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Daggers wrote:Yeah. I don't know what lock he was manipulating in that video

First one looks to me like a SG6730 (Two clutches and brass lever) lock with a LG1800 (lowered direction labels, no small hole) drive cam.
Second one looks like a Peerless lock on a Diebold Triumph door.

I really would like to see this documentary in better resolution.

Btw. there is a new documentary about Sitar on youtube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r5AD6CbGfoA I was shocked how he looks now.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Visitor

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Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 11:34 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

I've never used graphs, I've played with them on the bench but it's so time consuming and I don't think it looks right in front of the customer in my opinion.
You know where you get different movement, there's no point in marking every reading down if you get the same for most of the dial.

Jeff is a legend and very rarely speaks of his openings, I did once read an account of how he manipulates, it's no con, he can and does open even the hardest locks like it appears.
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MartinHewitt

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Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 12:00 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Do you also manipulate SG6642, SG6630, LG3330, LG3390 and unusual locks without graph?
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Dec 21, 2018 3:45 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Martin, I wasn't aware of this more recent interview. Thanks!
Sitar has long been a great source of inspiration for me.

Wasn't much of an 'interview' if you ask me, but no matter.
The most intriguing statement for me is when he mentions....

...But 95% of the safes out there, I open up by manipulation, with just my hands.

...The other five, I have to drill.

Here's a guy that has spent the better part of lifetime on safes.
Discovery channel said "about 500 safes/year". So we're talking'
bout a substantial number of openings. That said, a 95 - 5 ratio
is just tremendously inspiring and encouraging for me to hear.

Visitor wrote:.....Jeff is a legend and very rarely speaks of his openings, I did once read an account of how he manipulates, it's no con, he can and does open even the hardest locks like it appears.

And thanks for adding this Visitor. Again, I just love hearing anything about Jeff. The odds of I (or most anyone) reaching the same level is unlikely... however, simply seeing what is possible never fails to help me improve. Just the power of inspiration I guess - it helps me push past my own personal boundaries.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Sat Dec 22, 2018 1:16 am

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Most safe technicians drill, because that is the only thing what most safe technicians can do. (The standard locksmith apparently is using an angle grinder.) With electronic locks it is often the case, that drilling is indeed the best way. It is really amazing what experience some guys have which have specialized in safes with electronic locks. Then there are safes with mechanic locks. Depending on the clients the rate where drilling is unavoidable can be 5% or less. (If the clients are banks with burgled ATMs this is obviously not the case.) There are very few people out there who manage to manipulate what can be manipulated. Jeff is apparently one of them. I consider the possibility to manipulate a lock actually to be an advantage as it allows non-damaging safe openings. Maybe not a 6741, but a LG3330, a 4-wheel LG or a 6630. At least in Germany the low-end LG is now the 3390S. That is IMHO bad. It is much harder to manipulate and it is unreliable. I am sure drill rates will go up with the good safe technicians.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Visitor

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Post Sat Dec 22, 2018 12:26 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

I keep notes but I don't graph. I do also drill and scope, time is important.
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mdc5150

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Post Sat Dec 22, 2018 6:48 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

MartinHewitt wrote:Most safe technicians drill, because that is the only thing what most safe technicians can do. (The standard locksmith apparently is using an angle grinder.) With electronic locks it is often the case, that drilling is indeed the best way. It is really amazing what experience some guys have which have specialized in safes with electronic locks. Then there are safes with mechanic locks. Depending on the clients the rate where drilling is unavoidable can be 5% or less. (If the clients are banks with burgled ATMs this is obviously not the case.) There are very few people out there who manage to manipulate what can be manipulated. Jeff is apparently one of them. I consider the possibility to manipulate a lock actually to be an advantage as it allows non-damaging safe openings. Maybe not a 6741, but a LG3330, a 4-wheel LG or a 6630. At least in Germany the low-end LG is now the 3390S. That is IMHO bad. It is much harder to manipulate and it is unreliable. I am sure drill rates will go up with the good safe technicians.


I have learned to do some dialing diagnostics, looking for wheel shadowing that will make a manipulation much more difficult and weigh in the value of a safe and it's finish and the time it would take to manipulate .vs drilling with minimal damage and scoping or even poking a small hole up front that can be patched relatively easy and dialing it in. I recent manipulated a very nice gun safe that was in immaculate condition and it was a nicer safe with better build. With a little dialing diagnostics I figured it could be opened and it took me a little over an hour for a 6730. It was shadowing just a little on the last wheel but I had a good feeling about it so I stuck with it.
On the other hand a Sentry with false gates that is about 30 years old and a busy schedule means I am drilling it as a first option. It is not worth the time to me or the customer to manipulate that one especially when a patch and a sticker covers up that it had ever been drilled.

As for the customers on those two safes, with the gun safe I charged the same amount of money to manipulate as I would to drill. They still come out ahead without having to pay for repair or paint or a new lock. The customer with the Sentry however, even though I drilled I dialed back my normal fee a bit. They still payed for a safe opening but nowhere near the normal rate.

As for graphs, I don't normally graph unless it is a very difficult lock. It has to be giving me almost nothing to start a graph.
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magician59

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Post Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:07 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

I'm not one of the "speed dialers". But my best time on a Lagard lock is 45 minutes. My best time on a S&G is 15 minutes. Manipulation is a very good place to start in diagnosing malfunctioning locks. It is well worth the time, money and effort to learn!
Nemo Malus Felix
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 3:20 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

I analyzed my last two Kromer 15B speed openings. At my current spinning speed I should open it on average in 11 minutes. But only because I know it is very friendly and shows the gates in the correct order.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer

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Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 5:45 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

I know we're getting a little off track as we broach the 'drill vs manipulate' topic once again, lol... but what the hell, it's an old thread. Besides, it's always an interesting topic.

Matt... the gun safe w/ the 6730 and the older Sentry; these are two great examples of what I'd consider a fair and professional approach. I've said it before, but I love the fact that you've placed emphasis on both manipulation and drilling, and continue to better yourself in both areas.

Also worth mention is something I never really realized - that drilling is often times dictated by the customer rather than the tech's decision. i.e. You've explained manipulation comes with no guaranteed outcome. You've also quoted how much they'll be paying for your time and effort, regardless of results. At that point I'd imagine many opt for the drill/repair, feeling more comfortable with a predictably set price, time, and result.

As I've become a little less naive, I really have no beef with drilling. It's the ones that know nothing but drilling that's bothersome. Of course, the flip side of this same rock could be tossed right back at me, lol... considering I know how to manipulate, but know nothing of drilling.

It's still an interesting question for me, and one that I ask everyone who calls: "Have you called around prior to me, and if so, what were you told?" I still have yet (not ONCE) to hear manipulation was offered as an option. Instead it's always "I'll have to drill and it'll cost x amount". Worse yet, a number of my customers were told the lock would be "damaged and unusable afterwards"... a huge red flag.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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MartinHewitt

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Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 6:34 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Thanks, Oldfast, for not letting me sit here alone on Christmas eve. :)

I don't think it is the customer dictating drilling. I think it is the locksmith/safe tech who tells the customer how the safe will be opened. When the customer calls a small locksmith shop and that guy says "it can only be opened with an angle grinder" then they will let the locksmith open the safe with an angle grinder even so it is probably the worst tool. Here a case from Germany:
https://translate.google.com/translate? ... eweidet%2F (translated into English with google!)
http://tresoroeffnung-bayern.de/blog/20 ... sgeweidet/ (the original link where I do see the fotos)
Case specific fee 399
journey 20
Saturday surcharge 199,50
4.5 hours extra working time (39.90 per quarter hour) 718,20
16 Angle grinder disks (74,90 per disk)
VAT 483.57
Total 3028.67

Between the safe techs I deal with the jobs are shifted around a bit also according to abilities to help the customer with his needs.
In case you wonder ... Martin Hewitt is a fictional detective in stories by Arthur Morrison:
Martin Hewitt, Investigator Chronicles of Martin Hewitt
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mdc5150

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Post Mon Dec 24, 2018 7:28 pm

Re: Lock manipulation without graphs?

Mike I also tell the customer that I will try to manipulate and if not successful, or even not promising I will drill and fully inform them of the price. I don't charge for manipulation if it is not successful. If I have to drill they pay for drill and repair or whatever is needed. The only exception would be if it is going to be an extremely difficult manipulation and the customer is very insistent on no drilling I start giving them an hour for a flat rate and then an hourly rate after that. That option has not been tested as of yet.
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