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Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:43 am**

Lock manipulation without graphs.Is it possible and how it works?
Some time ago I had seen this video

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qw_4HQMS-pk[/youtube]

After that, I forgot about it. But now, I read http://www.mbausa.com/course_9.asp?e=1

" Learn how to open U.L. listed Group 2 combination locks through the use of touch, sight, sound, and mind in this ground breaking class. Forget about graphs and complicated dialing sequences. This class enables you to understand the lock in a way few people do.
...................................
How to detect small differences in contact point variation - without graphs or magnifiers
............................
Would you like to toss out all the books and graphs you've tried in the past and develop a genuine understanding of manipulation?
.....................................
"

Have you any idea how it works?

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:07 am**

I cannot answer how... but I can answer yes it is possible. i am not a safe lock tech like others on here, but I'm a fan of Jeff Sitar ...
http://www.jeffsitarsafecracker.net/

he only cracks safes by feel. but why limit yourself. learn the easiest method first, then with years of practice, slowly start eliminating tools from the tool bag you no longer need. any tool that helps, is a good tool.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 8:13 am**

After you've been graphing for a while, you get a feel of what it's like when it hit's the right spot. You'll be able to notice the drop on the dial. Just keep the last number in your head and if there's a significant drop, that's probably your number. If it drops a bit more than normal, but not enough to be sure, just keep that number in mind as you keep going around the dial and if there aren't any other drops that stand out, then do high/low testing or whatever method you use to test that drop.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:47 am**

wrench214 wrote:I cannot answer how... but I can answer yes it is possible. i am not a safe lock tech like others on here, but I'm a fan of Jeff Sitar ...
http://www.jeffsitarsafecracker.net/

he only cracks safes by feel. but why limit yourself. learn the easiest method first, then with years of practice, slowly start eliminating tools from the tool bag you no longer need. any tool that helps, is a good tool.

If you are his fan, so can you email him and ask about his technique ? Maybe he will answer briefly? :cool:

My poor English prevent me do this.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 11:53 am**

Daggers wrote:After you've been graphing for a while, you get a feel of what it's like when it hit's the right spot. You'll be able to notice the drop on the dial. Just keep the last number in your head and if there's a significant drop, that's probably your number. If it drops a bit more than normal, but not enough to be sure, just keep that number in mind as you keep going around the dial and if there aren't any other drops that stand out, then do high/low testing or whatever method you use to test that drop.

So, you think at video he manipulates good lock which wheels indicate w3-w2-w1. Also lock has clear contact points and he uses one contact point only(left or right). All supposed gate points he keeps in memory. And open the lock with about 6 minutes?

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 12:55 pm**

Yeah. I don't know what lock he was manipulating in that video but with a time like that, the wheels would've had to read in 3-2-1 order and he might've only tested one wheel at a time instead of having to spin the entire wheel pack. And definitely only using the right contact point.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:42 pm**

Daggers wrote:Yeah. I don't know what lock he was manipulating in that video .

I believe it was a s&G 6700 because form of the wheel. Lagard uses other type of a wheel. Also s&g internal relocker.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 2:44 pm**

Daggers wrote: might've only tested one wheel at a time instead of having to spin the entire wheel pack. And definitely only using the right contact point.

Thanks!

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:50 pm**

Oh its possible.....

I do it while walking down the street and while riding the bus.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnfvhYchJqY

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 6:54 pm**

The 2 day manipulation course I took MANY moons ago didn't even teach graphing. They explained it, called it out-moded and left it at that. Graphing is a very old concept.

Posted: **Wed Apr 01, 2015 7:06 pm**

Some might have the skills and experience to do without, but "a short pencil is better than a long memory."

Posted: **Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:48 am**

webpirate wrote:Oh its possible..... I do it while walking down the street and while riding the bus.... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hnfvhYchJqY

Make some description of your movement for usual people. :mrgreen:

Posted: **Thu Apr 02, 2015 12:53 am**

mastersmith wrote:The 2 day manipulation course I took MANY moons ago didn't even teach graphing. They explained it, called it out-moded and left it at that. Graphing is a very old concept.

So, you mean there is some new manipulation concept? Can you tell us about it? :cool:

Posted: **Thu Apr 02, 2015 3:23 pm**

No, not new. The concepts are the same, how much you document is the only difference. While graphing you document ALL of your readings when all you need to know are the DIFFERENT readings. If you don't find a difference, ignore it.

Posted: **Thu Apr 02, 2015 6:58 pm**

Sometimes you can hear and feel the difference... Once in a while I will look at the lock to move the wheel where I want and then look away to see if I can hear and feel a difference from the last number I tried... I am always looking for ways to test myself..

.:: Keypicking :: Anything And Everything For Locksmiths, Hobbyist Lock Pickers, Locksport, Lock Picking, lockpicks, cutaways and Security. Simply The Best Lockpicking Forum Around!

Lock manipulation without graphs?

Lock manipulation without graphs?

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