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Direct Entry - Laser Rig

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MBI

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Post Mon May 16, 2016 7:15 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Oldfast. You sir, are a clever man.

Careful with that green laser Squelch. If it can light a match, I doubt it's eye-safe. But then again, I'm no expert.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Tue May 17, 2016 10:45 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

MBI wrote:Oldfast. You sir, are a clever man....

Well thank you! Truth be told, I'm not much for thinking 'outside the box'. Never have been.
So often times my projects are based off the brilliance of others. One of the many reasons
I love this forum! I'm grateful for all your guys' ideas... they give my efforts direction.

I gotta admit though, this is one that's really got me excited. I have two Sentry safes here that I've
been using to test & refine this rig... it's absolutely slaughtering 'em. And I'd imagine any other Sentry
or off-brand safe will fall just as hard. But my hope is that I will have this system so finely tuned that
it will prove just as effective with the older antique safes (I've heard some of them can be difficult).

Squelchtone wrote:....I have a green laser I can mail you for free....

Good to cya Squelch! And that's a very kind offer. I'm curious as to the dimensions (diameter & length)?
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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femurat

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Post Wed May 18, 2016 7:44 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

I love this project. Just a suggestion, if you haven't thought about it jet. Try to clamp the rig as far as possible from the center of the handle. It should indicate more because it has more leverage.
I say this because I see you've clamped it in the middle of the handle in all the pictures of this thread. And you've attached the spring towards the end of the handle.
Even if you amplify the indication with mirrors and laser, it will work even better if the starting indication is bigger.
So put the rig at the end of the handle and the spring towards the center.

Cheers :)
Pictures in my posts are gone due to a policy change by my hosting provider that caught me unprepared. I'll work on that. In the meantime left click the image and open it in new tab, you should be able to see the picture, with a selection of unrelated advertising and banners all around it.
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xeo

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Post Wed May 18, 2016 7:43 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

That is hardcore. I like it.
Image
The code is hidden in the tumblers. One position opens the lock, another position opens one of these doors...
http://www.youtube.com/xeotech1

(ノಠ益ಠ)ノ彡┻━┻

░░░░░░░░░░░░░Image
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Random

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Post Thu May 19, 2016 1:33 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

This is really cool stuff, Thanks for putting this together. The Holder for the lazer is a nice design, looks like someone is missing a 400 mcm lug. :smile:
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat May 21, 2016 3:40 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

femurat wrote:I love this project. Just a suggestion, if you haven't thought about it jet. Try to clamp the rig as far as possible from the center of the handle. It should indicate more because it has more leverage.
I say this because I see you've clamped it in the middle of the handle in all the pictures of this thread. And you've attached the spring towards the end of the handle.
Even if you amplify the indication with mirrors and laser, it will work even better if the starting indication is bigger.
So put the rig at the end of the handle and the spring towards the center.

Cheers :)

Thanks Femurat! And I agree with you. I have not abandoned this idea entirely,
but with these Sentry safes it seems to work better this way for a couple reasons:

1) With so many of the components (including the handle) being made of plastic, there's some degree of flex that seems to effect consistency. Actually, it could be the flex-factor or maybe just the additional jarring of my laser. In either case I find it doesn't occur so much if I choke the laser up on the handle as far as I can. 2) On this Sentry, quite a bit of pull on the handle is required. More than I can produce even with my magnet attached all the way down. Rather than changing to a different spring, I just bring it further towards the end of the handle to get that extra bit of force I need.

But again, I like the idea. We'll just have to wait for a different safe to give it a try though. Then we'll see how much of a difference it makes.

xeo wrote:That is hardcore. I like it.
:hbg:

Random wrote:This is really cool stuff, Thanks for putting this together. The Holder for the lazer is a nice design, looks like someone is missing a 400 mcm lug. :smile:

lol, Yep. And that seems to be the place to look. So far basically everything I've done and tried in terms
of holding and attaching the laser have come from various electrical relating stuff. This one came from
an electrical disconnect we were about to scrap when I had that 'ah-ha' moment. lol
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Jaakko Fagerlund

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Post Sat May 21, 2016 5:36 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

If you have trouble seeing the laser spot/line on your target in a well lit room, how about adding a bit of paper or whatever to give a shadow over your graph? Or a different color paper so the laser is easily spotted?
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat May 21, 2016 5:25 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Jaakko Fagerlund wrote:If you have trouble seeing the laser spot/line on your target in a well lit room, how about adding a bit of paper or whatever to give a shadow over your graph? Or a different color paper so the laser is easily spotted?

Thanks Jaakko! Appreciate ya taking a look and throwing out some thoughts. And you're right... I've done it on a couple occasions by just temporarily propping up a card along one side to get a shadow. It works pretty well. I've also thought about making some 'flaps' on the back side of the graph that could easily be pulled out and around when needed. But yeah, I think this is probably about the best solution... at least until I find the perfect laser for this.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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klynch212

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Post Wed Jul 13, 2016 8:35 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Hi Mike
as always an Excelant posting with great pictures
coincidentally after seeing some of the metal pointer based approaches
to the the direct drive type locks I was also thinking of a building a something laser based

I'm no where near construction phase but here are a few thoughts
right off the top of my head

Regarding lack of contrast/brightness in lighted rooms
Yes It makes sense you get a drop off in power at the increased distances
(theres a inverse square law in there somewhere)

I was also thinking of trying a phosphorescent laser target card
or possible a simple target painted with "projection screen paint"
(These prices are very high, I think a shopper can do better )

https://www.thorlabs.com/newgrouppage9. ... oup_ID=296

Don't think you mentioned it? but are you using Front Surfaced optical mirrors?
(the Rear surfaced ones add refraction distortion and some losses)

I love the Harbor Freight Laser myself
I don't have mine handy (just moved to a new home)
Is the line generating portion (reticle) removable from the laser?
I don't remember it being easily removeable?
but I'm thinking you could just mate the line reticle to a more powerful laser?

But bottom line, does it really need to be Line ?
to note displacement in a single direction why not just the standard dot?

Now if If I can find a cheap Craiglist Sentury Box to play along with

Thanks Again
KJL
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Daggers

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Post Thu Jul 14, 2016 12:51 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Wow I've been gone for too long! That a really novel idea, I'm glad to see you're still coming up with new stuff and helping the community :)
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Sat Sep 24, 2016 1:53 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

KJL, thanks so much for all your thoughts and questions.
And sorry for such a delayed response! Summer's been crazy.

klynch212 wrote:I was also thinking of trying a phosphorescent laser target card
or possible a simple target painted with "projection screen paint"
(These prices are very high, I think a shopper can do better )

Or if you really want to get crazy, you could look into a PSD (position sensing detector).
It would be a type of oscilloscope I guess? You'd mount a computer-based screen rather
than a mirror. The pointer would be projected into it where its' movement could then be
tracked with incredible precision. You're talking hundreds, probably thousands of dollars.
But the technology does exist.

klynch212 wrote:Don't think you mentioned it? but are you using Front Surfaced optical mirrors?
(the Rear surfaced ones add refraction distortion and some losses)

Correct. 1st surface mirrors are an absolute must at these distances.
Otherwise the degradation that occurs will render the laser useless.

klynch212 wrote:I love the Harbor Freight Laser myself
I don't have mine handy (just moved to a new home)
Is the line generating portion (reticle) removable from the laser?
I don't remember it being easily removeable?

No. Well, at least not easily. I tried, but didn't want to force it too much.

klynch212 wrote:But bottom line, does it really need to be Line ?
to note displacement in a single direction why not just the standard dot?

It does not have to be a line. You could certainly use a pointer instead.
But for me, the problems that arose were more than I wanted to solve.

By the time the dot reached my graph it was enormously large, and often times
produced more of a fuzzy/blurry oval rather than a circle/dot. There is a formula
to address this and produce a more precise dot at a particular distance - but it
would require knowing the exact distance each time you setup, as well as an
adjustable beam and/or a variety of apertures. It just wasn't worth it to me.

By all means, give it a try though. You may have more luck than me. And really,
regardless of the size of the dot, as long as its' edges are clearly defined you
could always use the top or bottom of the circle for your reference point.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Fritz the Cat

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Post Wed Nov 09, 2016 6:11 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

:smile: Lasers,beams of light and measurment . Reminds me of Foucult testing astronomical telescope mirrors within 1/4 light wave with just simple tools.

I want to build a laser rig very soon asI have 2 safes to open .A Sentry and a Wards 9007 (Meilink). Its supposedto have a lock simular toa S & G 6709.

I'm trying to measure some kind of movement with adial indicator with no sucess yet.

Still trying to get in my mind exactly whats happenning .
Question,To get something towork with like laser beam movement .How does the movement transmitt motionthru the bolt face tothe handle.Pictures of locks simular shows the handle contact the top of the bolt not the front ?UnlessI'mwrong..

Use a blue or violet/blue laser to make glow paint react more brighter.
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Thu Nov 10, 2016 1:38 am

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Fritz the Cat wrote:I want to build a laser rig very soon asI have 2 safes to open .A Sentry and a Wards 9007 (Meilink). Its supposedto have a lock simular toa S & G 6709.

Good to cya around Fritz :) What you have is two different safes with two very different types of locks.

The laser rig would be applicable only to your Sentry. The lock on your Meilink is a different ball game.
The combination lock used in your Sentry safe is referred to as a 'Direct Entry' or 'Straight Tailpiece'.
To get an image in your mind, look at the very last picture in Daggers' post HERE. Or look at THIS.

Take a look at the tailpiece near the wheel pack. It basically looks like a piece of flat stock and is
directly connected to the bolt work and/or handle. Turning the handle slides this piece up against
the wheel pack. So now you can see how the handle becomes a sort of 'conductor of clues' really.
By precisely measuring handle movement we can determine just how much the tailpiece has been
allowed to penetrate/enter into the wheel pack.

Fritz the Cat wrote:Still trying to get in my mind exactly whats happenning .
Question,To get something towork with like laser beam movement .How does the movement transmitt motionthru the bolt face tothe handle.Pictures of locks simular shows the handle contact the top of the bolt not the front ?UnlessI'mwrong..

So if you're looking at pictures of your Meilink and you're left scratching your head as to
how handle movement would help you crack the combo... that's the correct reaction. lol

There's two separate things at play here; the locks' bolt... and the doors' bolt work.
The lock bolt is retracted first (via the dial - final turn right after combo retracts the bolt).
With the lock bolt out of the way, the doors' bolt work can now be retracted via the handle.

So like I say, approaching this lock is entirely different and doesn't involve handle movement.
If you're interested in learning manipulation, there's some good places to get started nowadays.
Matt Blaze's paper, "Safecracking for the Computer Scientist" is in the public domain for free.
Daggers wrote a book, and Femurat has a great write-up to get started right here in the forum.
The 'dark-ages' seem to be coming to an end as I see manipulation books on ebay & Amazon.
.
.
.
By the way, the unbranded lock on the Montgomery Ward (Meilink) safes were produced by
a company called Center Manufacturing. And while at first glance they may seem rather cheap
in comparison, don't underestimate them. My first run in with one left me rather disheartened.

However, they have a 'somewhat' predictable personality after you've talked with a few of 'em.

The wheels are stamped/pressed out of plastic or delrin. This process often (but not always)
produces a small tab on the outer edge of the wheel - which happens to be located directly
opposite the gate
:) So rather than look for low areas, look for the highs. These tabs will
usually produce peaks in your readings that span 4-7 incs wide. ie. If you find the center of
a peak to be at 0, the gate for that wheel will be around 50. More examples; 41 would be 91.
16=66... 37=87, etc. Find exact center for the peak, then add 50 to land you directly opposite.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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Fritz the Cat

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Post Fri Nov 11, 2016 6:04 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Wow that was a Zen moment :shock:

So this is where the Sentry and Wards safe split threads.I read over everthing you mentioned and I seethe difference between the two .Thanks Oldfast for therdetailed post.

So now Istill have the Sentry safe and I only see two problems . My sentry was mishandled and the handle with shaft came out . The shaft is a 1/4 inch square shaft with what appearedto be a cut slot meant for a snap ring .The handle still engages a mechenism inside . The other problem is the tubular lock.
Can I still work the dial on the Sentry and pick the lock later ? I still have the handle :???:
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Oldfast

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OldddffAASSTT the Spin Master Extraordinaire and American Lock Slayer
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Post Fri Nov 11, 2016 11:59 pm

Re: Direct Entry - Laser Rig

Well, tackling a safe that has been previously raped by someone is never appealing.
Hopefully (and it seems likely) the damage is limited to the handle being snapped off.
You'll have to decide how you want to work your way around that. I'm sure you'll manage.

The tubular lock will work in one of two ways, depending on the safe you have. It's either
1) an over-ride (meaning the lock will open the safe without having to dial the combination).
Or 2) a secondary locking mechanism. In this case you will need both the key and the combo.
If this is the case, you'll need to have the lock in the open position before you begin manipulation.

Posting some pics might help identify what it is you're dealing with. Pretty good odds I won't know
one way or the other, lol (there's just so damn many models from Sentry it's annoying). However,
I'm sure someone around here will know as soon as they see it.
" Enjoy the journey AS MUCH as the destination."
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